"It’s a Grind, But I’m Also Doing What I Love” with Carson Letot 

Please note, this transcript is generated by AI and may include some errors. 

Spencer Payne: Okay, here we are with front of the class, real stories from real educators. Joining us today, Carson Letat. And Carson, you've got a varied background. Love to hear your perspective. When you introduce yourself, people ask, what do do for a living? And especially in the education space, how do you introduce yourself? How do you describe what you're focused on these days?

Carson Letot: Yeah, so I think it depends on that person that I'm introducing myself to, right? Because I think if it's somebody in the education space, I can be much more specific. If it's somebody, ⁓ the lay person outside, I make it simple. that random person outside that I might meet, just, it's easy enough just to tell them I'm a professor. They get the gist, right? And then we can kind of go from there. And that's nice too, because it really tempers our expectations for what kind of stories I'm going to tell about my students, right? Whether they're going to be off the wall about eating glue or if it's going to be college student problems, right?

But if it's somebody in the education space, I can tell them I'm a program director at a community college. And then that articulates very quickly into like working at the community college level, working in a program space versus like a tenure faculty kind of position. yeah, I would say that I've got two halves to that story.

Spencer Payne: Perfect. And what is it that you're teaching there?

Carson Letot: Yeah, so I teach agriculture broadly and then more specifically, I teach classes that are involved with the agronomy of turf grass science systems. ⁓ And so I run an apprenticeship program for turf grass science students. And so those are folks that work at a golf course and they work on the maintenance side. So they get the golf course ready to go for play each day. And then I also teach a soils class, sports field class, sports field management. ⁓

I also teach some work based learning classes and then this fall I'll teach a turf grass calculations class that we're going to see how much I can learn just ahead of the students, right? I think a lot of teachers out there know what that's like when you're teaching in your wheelhouse and all of sudden you pick up a subject area that you know enough to be dangerous about. So that's me in turf calc, but my mother was a teacher for 31 years and so she's got, and she was a middle school math teacher, so I might have tap on her as they kind of like go into the bullpen, right, to bring in a closer, so she'll be able to help me out a little bit that.

Spencer Payne: I mean, I've heard a story of another teacher we interviewed a few months ago who will literally call her mom, she teaches second grade and she'll literally call her mom in class and say, wasn't I able to do this, this or add this when I was in second grade? And her mom will say, yeah, you could. And then she'll say, see students, I could do this, you could do it too.

Well, what is it? What is a typical class look like? So community college. So can you help us understand a little bit of like, what does the class size look like for a class like this that you're teaching? Maybe the learner demographics and how you're spending time indoor versus outdoor. Like, can you paint us a little bit of a picture of what your classroom quote unquote looks like for a class like this?

Carson Letot: Absolutely. So it depends on the subject area, right? And each of the classes, they're a little bit different. So I've had classes of two that are very niche, right? And we're, pretty mobile. So we'll meet in different places, whatever's convenient for me or for them. So sometimes with, with those smaller classes, we can meet in the field. So like this last fall, the sports field management class, we met at a soccer stadium one week. The next week we met at a minor league baseball park. A couple of weeks after that, we met over at a golf course and Yeah, I we can be mobile, we can get on the road, then we can get back in the classroom, which is kind of cool, but sometimes you miss like that energy with a big class of people, right, and all of the different dynamic relationships that can come out. And then the enrichment of ideas, right, if you can get 20 or 30 people to chew on a topic versus just five, right, it spurs a lot more conversation. So small classes are great, and that's what the turf grass science students and soils and those kind of niche subject areas.

With my apprentices, I bring in 20 every year. So when we have class, it's all 20 of them together in class. And it's really intensive. So we're meeting Monday through Thursday, two hours a day. By the end of the semester, it's like 12 credits that they get for that one single class. ⁓ And then that one, we're hitting the road like every other week. So there's a lot of content that I got to deliver to them because I basically have to fit in an associate's degrees worth of credits and content and knowledge into one year's worth of classes.

So I turn on the fire hose at them, right? And they're drinking as quick as they can. But then it gets to the point where they're just really burnout in class. So I've now been doing this long enough where I can time it where, okay, like we can get out of the classroom, get into the field, do something to reset. And then by that point, they're ready to get back in the classroom and hit the books again. yeah, with that one, we're typically always at golf courses around the area. ⁓ We kind of got to stay within a radius. Like I'd love to take an exotic trip, right? To the ocean or to one of the courses in the mountains but typically we got to stay in the area just logistically, right? I don't want my students to miss too much time at work.

Spencer Payne: And given that the training of what you're doing here is much more hands on, real, able to do something versus, mean, I'm sure people need to pass a test and there's some of that too, but there's a balance here. How do you approach, how do you approach ensuring your students are on track and know not only maybe the theory and the test taking ability of what they're doing, but also the ability to actually go physically do it like.

You mentioned some field trips locally, et cetera. Like how do you approach that or how do you balance that knowing that, again, this isn't just about passing a high school biology test and have to get a good grade, right? This is about actually being able to do the job. How do you foster that?

Carson Letot: Yeah, so I'll walk backwards for a second, lay a little bit more groundwork for the program, then we'll move forward talking a little bit more about the day to day. So this program falls under career and technical education. And, know, what's funny is this is like a, like a new sexy way to deliver career technical education content, right? Is through this apprenticeship model. But I mean, we see hieroglyphics in Egypt of apprentices 5,000 years ago. Yeah.

Spencer Payne: Yeah, would say maybe it's a new sexy way just because we haven't done it in a while, but this is how people have been learning for a long, long, time.

Carson Letot: Yep. And if we want to get more niche into turfgrass science, Australia has been doing this for a while and they actually have like four to five levels worth of it. So it's almost like getting a bachelor's degree going through the apprentice stages. And the United Kingdom has been doing it for like 120 years. So yeah, like we're kind of late to the game a little bit, but we're catching up. We're moving quick. And a big part of that has been the community college system. So when we look at building this program, it's balancing coursework and fieldwork. 

And the typical student that comes to the community college space, ⁓ they are balancing a lot more in life than the typical student that might be going to an R1 or an R2 or an R3 university, right? Like a lot of them are balancing work and home life with classes. So they're taking classes at unique times of the day to work that in. ⁓ They're probably not taking classes as a full time student. Often they're oftentimes taking one or two classes whenever they can afford it or have the time to do it. And so working with those non-traditional students and for us, identifying the main barrier is the cost, right? Whether it be time or money. So we said, okay, how can we do this where our students can work full time, make a full paycheck, pay their bills, do their thing, but then also add a little bit of classwork on top. And so we meet in the afternoons after they're done with work. our students are working, they start work at 5.30 or 6 a.m.

They're off by like two, and then they come over to class and then we're in class from 2.30 to 4.30. So some of those hot days where it's like 85 degrees outside and they might be digging irrigation trenches for all afternoon. And then they come into class and trying to keep them awake is a special thing. back in the day, that was always the thing, High school classes started super early, right? So when I was a high school science teacher, some of my students were zombies coming into class, And sitting down, their body might be there, but their brain is back in their bed waiting for the snooze on the alarm.

Whereas now it's like flip to the opposite sides the afternoon where you kind of get that slow time in the afternoon that you're wearing down a little bit before dinner And I've got to do my best to keep my students awake So for me, it's kind of a cool thing that ensures that I'm doing the things that I need to be doing as an instructor to be very student-centered So it's a lot of me talking less than doing more and a big part of is just staying awake, right? So it's a good litmus test that it's when I talk to people. It's like well, yeah, I'm trying to keep them awake

But it's also, if I can keep them awake, means that we're doing really active things in class, right? It's student centered, engaging. ⁓ yeah, that's what we're trying to do on the day to day. But looking more at like the training and what you talked about were like, how do I know that our students are getting to the point of satisfactory or exemplary ⁓ in each of the skillsets they're acquiring? And what's the assessment look like? ⁓ First and foremost, not get fired, right? So each one of my students, each day they show up to the class and they're still not fired, then okay, we've survived another day.

And for most all of them, that's never an issue, never a worry. But for some students, they're coming in the classroom a very different background in a very different space. And so I have students that will come into the program with a master's degree, right? So they get school, they kind of get the gist of how it works. I have some students that come in and this is a very different and foreign way to approach life. So for them, they do have to kind of figure some things out, mature and get to that space.

And so we build out a framework for all the skill sets that they need to be acquiring on the job. And then my job in class is to very much move over to the experiential learning type of style of education and say, okay, you've done all these things at work. Let's reflect on those now and let's think about ways that we can improve on the things that you did. So for example, I might have a student ⁓ that spends the morning mowing with a new piece of equipment.

And let's say it's maybe one of the big rough mowers that requires them to ⁓ be able to operate a bigger piece of equipment. They have to go through the pre-checks of warming up the mower and checking fluid levels. And then when they're going out to cut, they have to identify different types of turf that they would be cutting with that particular unit versus a different type of unit with a different type of grass, different height of cut. ⁓ And so then when we come into class, well, we talk about the science behind a rotary style cutting method versus a real style cutting method. So what you'd use on a green versus what you'd use in the rough.

⁓ And so the science behind why that that particular blade cuts the pizza grass in the way that does And then we might talk about the sharpness of the blade right and how a dull blade leads to more disease pressure and So then talking a little bit about pathology right and diseases setting in on turf and why they set in on injuries to turf Because of a a dull blade. So it's a very reflective thing, right? They're working at the course They learn these skill sets how to operate a piece of equipment or a unit and then they come into class and we're talking about the science behind what they're doing. hopefully that gives you a little bit of the flavor.

Spencer Payne: Yeah, and how do students find you? How do students say, how are students opting in saying, that's what I want to do, that's the place that has it, is it a lot of inbound, do you do a lot of outreach to try to attract people? Because this is no longer, well, you're in ninth grade, so you have to take biology, so all your students just have to come to you, so they're coming to you by choice. So how do your students find you? How do you do outreach to get people who might be interested to come to you?

Carson Letot: Yeah. that's honestly, that's been the biggest learning curve and probably the thing that provides me the most stress is constantly filling my seats, right? Because when I taught high school agriculture, yeah, my students showed up because they had to write like they're bound by law to get there. Whereas my students now, it's almost like I'm marketing and recruiting them into the program, but then I've got to keep them there. And I could have individuals that are grown adults. I've had students that are 20 years old. I've had students that are 62.

And so for a lot of them, there's it's one thing to find me and join the program. It's another thing to stay in the program, right? And they're not paying tuition. They get a grant that pays for their tuition. So it removes another barrier for them. So as long as they show up to class, right? Anybody from any walk of life can afford to be there. ⁓ I've got to also make sure that they're going to come back the next day. So I'm not only marketing to get them there, but I'm also marketing each day to bring them back, right? Like I have to bring my best or else I could have an empty classroom tomorrow kind of thing. So.

⁓ yeah, as, as teaching goes, right. That's not one of the things that they train you on in a typical teacher preparation program is to market your classes and to, constantly be advertising. but it's something I've had to get kind of, ⁓ I guess, kind of, kind of nifty and kind of, ⁓ sneaky in the ways that I do it. So the first way is the word of mouth, the grassroots approach. so we talked to superintendents in the area locally, ⁓ and all of my students for, my program site coming in from about a 45 minute radius away and.

What's nice is here in Pinehurst, North Carolina, we're the home of American Golf. So we have 38 golf courses within a 15 mile drive around here. So we're loaded and I've got a pretty good group and a pretty good, like you can consider those club, those golf courses, part of my classroom. So a pretty big space, right? To work with. And then we also have a site down in Myrtle beach and they have 78 golf courses down there within the grand strand region. So again, 78 different golf courses, kind of like those are all laboratory spaces and then the college campus. 

Yeah, when I market, I'm talking to the superintendents locally and saying, Hey, do you have somebody on the crew that probably should be going to a turf program? But there might be something in the way like there might be something that prevents them from going to like NC State or Clemson. And if so, like, what is that? And do think that they would be somebody that could commit to a full year of professional development and training? And if so, then they they give me the name of that person or oftentimes they'll go catch them on the golf course, bring them into the shop and I'll introduce myself to them.

And then from there, they're enrolling in the program. We've also seen individuals that are coming in from out of the area and they might want to just move into the area to work at one of the golf courses because it's a Mecca for golf. We have seven of the top 100 public golf courses in America. people that are wanting to be in the industry and want to be at the best place to do it, they'll move in here. And then when they move in, word of mouth gets to them that, there's this program they could be doing that would add to their portfolio as well.

And then last year we had this random thing that happened. So I wanted to get some more international students in the program because I'm a product of doing an international internship when I was going through my university preparation. And so I saw how enriching it was and it's like, all right, it'd be cool to give back to somebody and bring them in here. And so we had some ideas and some thoughts about how to get some international students in. And all of sudden, just out of the blue, I had some emails rolling in from some folks and every so often you get the wonky email, right? It's kind of like the ⁓ prints from a country in Africa that wants a bunch of money to help, right? So I've had a couple emails that I look and I'm like, I don't even want to click on this link that you put in here, let alone just anything else. But I got a couple emails that look real. ⁓ And so I was like, all right, like, let's see where this goes. So I answered back and I thought, well, the worst case scenario is I've spent one minute answering back this email. I can't possibly have contracted a virus, right? By sending this email back.

And two of those folks are now students in the program, one from Ireland and one from Scotland. And they both have very unique backgrounds, very unique stories. And it's so cool to have them in class. And I think a lot of teachers that are listening out there that work in an international space, right, they know how enriching that is to have a vibrancy of the student population and to add in folks from different cultures. It's even cooler, right? If we had different languages that are getting spoken in there, but every so often the Scotsman, if he really works at it, he can get his accent, you know, abrasive enough to ⁓ pull the tire. Yeah, yeah. He turns it up and turns it down. So sometimes I have my suspicions on his real nationality, but now he's gotten good at, you know, speaking with a little bit less of an accent. If he has to communicate with somebody on the crew, right? And that's what's always neat too down here in the South. ⁓

Spencer Payne: I'll say that that accent can almost qualify. Maybe, maybe that accent will qualify.

Carson Letot: You get a whole mixing pot, right? Of different accents from different little micro regions around the Carolinas. So when we're, when we're talking in class, we sometimes there's some heavy draws, sometimes there's some East coast accents, and then now we've got a couple other accents from different parts. So with them, they actually saw an Instagram ad. And so I think that's kind of neat, right? That education has transcended into the space where now we can see instead of pesky ads, I'm trying to sell some kind of, you know, cheap little case for your phone.

that it's an opportunity to join a one-year apprenticeship program. So they were watching the US Open, they were scrolling on their phone, ad popped up, and then they went with it. So that one I've been lucky with at the USGA, having a partner in them to help with the marketing has helped fill some seats in class. But yeah, originally when we started the program, it was a lot of the local folks and just word of mouth. And now the teeter totter starting to balance out a little bit where now I'm getting more students coming from out of the area than in the area.

And so as a teacher, I've had to really work on that, right? Like how do I build a program that's going to cater to all these different backgrounds? And then how do we make it attractive enough for them to choose to move their whole life here for a year? It's unbelievable that some of these folks are like, yeah, I'll move to Pinehurst, North Carolina for a year. I'll give you a year out of the 85 that I'm going to spend on this earth, you know, spent here in Pinehurst. Pretty neat.

Spencer Payne: And real quick for those unfamiliar, USGA, could you share the acronym for that, please?

Carson Letot: Yeah, United States Golf Association. they're the governing body of golf here in the US and partners with the RNA that do all the governing work ⁓ outside of the US for the game of golf. And so the USGA has been a great partner in this program. So working hand in hand with Sandhills Community College. ⁓ their goal is not only to host championships for the best players in the world to play and compete, but then also give back to the game. And so there's been over a hundred years worth of investment in research on new breeds of grass, new ways to control disease. And then now the latest thing that they've done is invested in those folks that work and maintain the golf courses. So this apprenticeship program was part of the US Open Giveback last year. So the USGA honed up a million dollars for the program ⁓ as part of that give back to the community. So that part's also pretty neat, right? A couple of years ago, I was in an agriculture classroom and I was really happy getting like a mini grant from some education foundation for a couple grand. And now it's kind of cool that all of sudden a check for a million dollars came in to support the program. that's also kind of neat that I think educators out there, right? Like they never know where this path is going to take them. And ⁓ it's pretty neat when you get a program of this size, right?

Spencer Payne: Yeah. And on that note, with all these varied backgrounds that you're talking about of how people are finding you and non-traditional students and ranging from 20 to 62, all of those varied backgrounds, do you happen to have any proudest moments that you've had in the classroom or folks who maybe was...

It was tough for them to be able to attend, but they got that grant and now they got that job that they were hoping for, that there wasn't a path for before. So any proudest moments, proudest accomplishments, students who you're just seeing to succeed beyond what you expected or what they expected that you're able to share?

Carson Letot: Yeah, it's always to me the proud moments are when when our students get promotions because oftentimes the the hourly rate that they're making is the state average for folks in this particular industry. But when you look long term, it's not necessarily the kind of money that you can use to buy a house, right? It's to pay your bills and to get to each day. But it's the survive versus thrive, right? So.

Anytime my students are getting a promotion and anytime they're going from an hourly position to a salary position, that's the Holy grail, right? And so I've had a couple of students that have made that move and to see them now not drive that jalopy of a car that they pulled into the parking lot every day that the battery may or may not be connected to the engine to now having a car that's reliable, right? Or living in an apartment, sharing it with three other people. And now all of a sudden they have a house.

⁓ That is the neatest thing and probably the neatest thing of all is when they have a young family that they're starting and now they can finally breathe because they can support them. So I had a student last year ⁓ who turned 20 while he was in the program. He's 21 now. ⁓ Who was working full time at a golf course and had ⁓ a landscaping company on the side. So he'd work full time from 6 a.m. to 2 p.m. Go to class from 2 30 to 4 30 and then until dark go and mow lawns at like other houses in the community, right?

And he also happened to have a girlfriend and happened to have a child and she was born, I guess, this time last year, probably. So back in the fall, like we had like this individual is trying to balance probably 80, 90 hours of work a week. Plus, try to get to class and complete projects and then also having a small child. Right. And I'm sure he was sleeping through the night without any issues at all. Right. With that newborn. And so like, yeah, I'm pulling my hair out sometimes because he's missing class and late on projects.

But I'm putting my hair back in knowing that this person is managing way more in their life than I've ever had to at that age. And I got him a job down at a really, really nice high end golf course in South Carolina. Now he makes a salary and he has housing support for his girlfriend and his baby. And now he's got a, he's on a path to a career. And this is the kind of golf course that when you have that line on the resume and the place he worked out up here was great too. But now both of those together on his resume, the world's is oyster.

⁓ And he's 21. He's further ahead than a lot of folks that I have and have had in the program that are 10 years of senior. So when you have people like that and you just, you work on your patients just a little bit, right? Like you have that student that's a little bit late on a project. It's like, no, just hold your tongue for a second. They've got bigger life things going on. It's okay. You can be nice in an email and, then all of sudden it happens, right? And they get across the finish line. They go do those amazing things.

He came to graduation last year and he was there with his girlfriend and his baby. And you just tell like smiling ear to ear. He was always too cool in class to be having a good time. But then at graduation, all of a sudden, the smile was lighting up on his face. I was like, oh, like there really is a human being in there that just had to survive that year. And now he's doing great. So those are the amazing moments, I think, is when when those those individuals now are setting up the rest of their life, which is different, I think, than what I would have seen it in the high school setting. Right. Like I oftentimes most of my students were freshmen.

⁓ And so like the little moments were like the light bulb moments when something would click right a certain piece of content or a certain process how to do something and Those were amazing as well But it's a it's just an equal and opposite thing right when when you're teaching at different age levels those things So I would just imagine is the same with primary ed right where there's teachers that all of sudden their students reads for the first time or write something for the first time like yeah, that's neat about education, right? We all have our little wins depending on our age group and our content. Yeah, we're all equal in amazing ways to do it.

Spencer Payne: Well, I want to dig into this for a second just because this, this, it can be so easy to fall into the trap of hiding behind policy of, well, you didn't turn that in. It's late. That's an F. You're at risk of failing in this class, right? It can be so easy to just follow the rules as they're set up, right? And there's, they exist for a reason, but to be able to in your seat, be able to balance that flexibility of like, but it's not because he's not doing it because he's lazy. He's actually working harder than probably anybody that I know. So if there's ever a time to be flexible and kind of choose people over policy, it's with this kid.

You maybe, like, can you maybe speak a little bit of that of when you have to be maybe a little bit, you don't have to be, I guess maybe is the point when you choose to be maybe more flexible in the rules, because there is a genuinely good reason to be flexible in the rules for someone like this, like, can you share maybe like, were you struggling with that of like, Oh, geez, should I give him a break? But then I have to have a break for everybody. If you treat one, you treat all but he's in a different like, how did you work through a little bit of that yourself? Because ultimately, it sounds like it got to a great outcome. And if you're ever going to give flexibility, it's just someone like this. So can you maybe share a little bit of like, was that a struggle for you? How did you get to the point of being able to prioritize flexibility for this person who seem like they genuinely deserve.

Carson Letot: Huge. Yeah. And you know, the there's two answers. There's the real answer. And there's like that textbook answer. So the textbook answer, I think, is just always having empathy and yeah, and just like going through it. But I think realistically, it does take a little bit of intuition and instinct as an educator. Right. Those those individuals out there who felt a calling to do teaching and every day their cup gets filled teaching right versus getting drained.

I think those people have like some sort of small thing that I don't know if you can trace it back to like a DNA sequence, right? But there's something in there where they're able to make that call on whether or not that student needs hard love or that student needs or the tough love or that student needs like a little bit more support, right? A little gentle hand. ⁓ And so I think there's a little bit of that there, but I think that the training that goes into it, right? So like we're finding because I always use like an analogy back to an athlete, right? Like you might be six foot nine then you might like have all the things that you maybe need to start playing basketball, but you still have to work on your shot, right? You still have to work on dribbling. There's still some refinement there. So I would argue that I have pretty good tuition and I have pretty natural dispositions for empathy. So that part helps I think in teaching, but then the refinement comes from just having data, right? So like I'm tracking everything from my students. We do pre and post evaluations when they get in the program, when they leave and I have check-ins during the program and then I'm tracking their grades, right?

All of this stuff leads to this quantitative evidence that I can start to point to and start to look at and say, OK, based on like this student who looks and has hallmarks very similar to four or five different students I've had in the past, now I can start to project out maybe what that potential is for them to either do great or maybe they're going to be somebody that's going to struggle to the point of failing out. So for this particular student, I saw the hallmarks that were there for him to potentially go the right way instead of the wrong way. But now, unfortunately, I've had a couple students that I've seen go the other way. And so I guess unfortunate for them, but fortunate for me that it now gives me some evidence to point to. And I can kind of start to look for some of the variables that might lead towards that, ⁓ which again, you want to turn it half half glass half full. I can maybe intercept that even earlier so that it doesn't get to the point where it goes down that path. So I'll give you an example ⁓ with him. He always has Sterling.

⁓ recommendations and support from his superintendent. So if his boss at the course who sees him at his worst, you know, always has his back. I know that's a good thing. And then I also know that any individual that I have in the program that's supporting a family, ⁓ they typically are going to have some more accountability on their shoulders, right? And while some of that might get heavy to the point of breaking, oftentimes if they can shoulder that load, they know the urgency that they have to have to make their paycheck, right? They know the urgency that they have to have to get a boost up to that next level and that like our program is going to be part of that to get them there. So if they're supporting a family, that's easy one to leverage some more empathy because I know that like they have to keep that job right to put food on the table. Whereas an individual that might be on their own, maybe doesn't have that variable. They can still be successful. They can still be amazing, but it's just, it's not that extra like, yep, I'm really sure about this decision to give him an extension.

And really in our world, like there's things that have to be done every day on the golf course. There's things in when I teach some of these more broad agronomy courses like soil science and plant science. ⁓ There's things that have to be done right the right way. So when I'm teaching fertilizers, I teach my students a lot about buffer strips and about applying the minimum amount of nutrients necessary to keep plants alive versus over fertilizing. Because we see all the times the things that happen, right? With like polluting water, polluting either drinking water or service level fresh water. So we know like the things that can happen. like for that kind of stuff like my students have to be perfect, right? Like I have to teach them and they have to deliver. But a lot of the stuff that we do like plants grow back, right? Like if I have a student that kills some turf, the turf is going to grow back. So that's that's an easy one to articulate in delivering class where it's like, hey, like, yeah, you got to know these things, but you have to always be super timely. No. Is it always critical that you're exactly right? No. There's a lot of things here that you can screw up as long as you're learning from it.

So I think that stuff that really resides as like a cornerstone of the content that I'm delivering then bleeds over into the methods that which were delivering the program and our instruction. And so then from there, it's like, Hey, you might be late on this project. And yeah, is it the end of the world? No. Do I still want you to do it? Yeah. But at the same time, just knowing and holding yourself accountable that, yeah, you were late on this project. Like you're writing your own resume and you're writing your, your, your, letter of recommendation every day that you're in this program. So you might've been late and you might've got it turned in on time. Awesome.

But, just know that when it comes time to write a letter of rec, that those are the kind of things that I'm going to think about, right? The professionalism. those kind of, those things balance and pull each lever and eventually gets us to the point where it's like, okay, we can be a little bit soft on these deadlines, but there has to be a shared accountability there that it's well, we're soft on this because you had this going on versus well, that was actually kind of a poor excuse, but we can still work with you to get it done. And it goes from there. So that probably muddied the water more than provided clarity, but that's at least kind of what I'm thinking through as an educator when I'm the stuff out. It's probably very different than educators at different age groups, right? Different levels where like there has to be those harder deadlines. Cause I think like oftentimes those students need to learn that rigidity early on. And then they can be given a longer leash when they're an adult, right? Cause these are grown people now that can make these decisions versus, you know, a student that's a third grader that needs the harder lines and the harder scaffolds.

Spencer Payne: Yep. and then you kind of alluded to this a little bit in that, in that answer of like, there are some things that can not go wrong in the, in, in, the professions that you're teaching these folks to be able to go, to go do, ⁓ at any stories you can share where, no, that, that person did that. ⁓ no. Like, are there any stories of like, ⁓ geez, like this is the one thing we didn't, we couldn't allow happen and it happened. And then like,

How do you and as maybe the instructor or that person's boss and that person bounce back, learn the lesson, come back from that? So any no's that you can share and again, lessons learned or bounce backs from something like that or even you changing your approach and teaching because of an no that happened. anything you can share there and then lessons learned.

Carson Letot: Yeah, in my classroom, luckily, things are safe enough and providing a safe space for them to experiment. The worst thing that might happen is we grow turf samples over the late winter into the springtime for them to take a look at. And that way they have a live sample of grass to attach to a lot of the content we're delivering. ⁓ And so I had a couple of students that have been in the industry for like eight, nine, 10 years. And when their turf samples germinated and started growing. They did very poorly and either contracted a disease, which is probably my fault that the classroom maybe classroom space maybe gets a little too warm or ⁓ too humid, but ⁓ they also might have trimmed it down to too low or put too much fertilizer on them. ⁓ And so some of them had little samples of turf. They kind of look like Charlie Brown's Christmas tree versus some of my other students that had a really nice, thick, thriving patch of turf in their samples. So ⁓ that's maybe the worst thing that happens, right? And they get discouraged.

And I'm one of my students looked at that and he was like, man, like what happened? Like I can do this for real outside. Like what happened here? And I'm like, wow, very different, right? When we're maintaining a green, a putting green versus a little sample in class. So that's the worst thing that will happen, right? A little bit of dead grass in the classroom. We're good to go. Otherwise a pretty, safe space. But outside of the classroom, yeah, I mean, it's real. And I've had students who've been injured on the job before and have had to go to the hospital because they're using big pieces of equipment on areas that are the terrain is as like a dramatic as possible, right? Like we want these really cool, big, dramatic looking landscapes to play golf on. And you've got to oftentimes drive a piece of equipment on that dramatic landscape that for some people they'll slip and fall down the hill. And now you've got to put a hundred thousand dollars spray rig on that hill. Right. So some golf courses use robotic mowers to just save their, their maintenance folks from being on that hill. So it's a little bit safer.

But oftentimes the courses around here, the maintenance workers are doing everything. We don't have as many robotic mowers in this area. So I've had students that have been on a spray rig that have toppled over and flipped over into a bunker. I've had students that probably the worst, that would be the worst one, right? Cause it's like a bodily injury. And so that student missed some class time. And then when they came back, they were in a cast on their shoulder for the rest of the time. And then I've had some other students that have had the opportunity to go out and spray some chemicals and typically their superintendent is going to work with them and they're not going to spray the most expensive stuff. There's some courses in the area that like every hour that they're in that spray rig is like a thousand dollars worth of chemicals going out. And yeah, so big money and something screws up, right? It's like that's a thousand dollars an hour kind of a thing. And then oftentimes, too, like what they're spraying, if they put too much of it out or in the wrong area, all of a sudden can kill that turf. And then that's, you know, hours down the line to pull that up and replace it.

Spencer Payne: Yep. That's way worse than $1,000 an hour at that point. Yeah.

Carson Letot: Yeah, yeah, because then sometimes it adds up right like over the course of the next couple of years that it's growing back to heel. So I've had some students ⁓ who have made some mistakes on the spray rig and that's sort of the holy grail that they want to get to is like, all right, I have achieved to the point of being on the crew where I'm trusted to apply chemicals. And our golf courses do a really good job of putting out a very specific amount in a very specific area, right? Because not only is it expensive, but then also just the precision to have the turf behave in the way that they want, right? Based on that chemical.

So they're not willy nilly spraying things out there, you know, that get into ponds and streams and creeks. But sometimes the applicators, right? Like when they're out there with a big brooms, boom sprayer, like those booms have to go down and be in a certain area. Well, the booms don't go down and you turn on the sprayers that all that mists into the air. And you're not going to have huge clouds that, you know, go over and pollute a whole town, but you are probably going to be just wasting a bunch of chemicals. Right. And so that's probably one of the worst things that my students would identify that they worry about is just.

You know having the the blades turned on in a mower and mowing into the turf and scalping it or having the Spoon sprayers not be down in the right place, but again It's just grass right like typically it grows back and yeah, it's a bummer But my students will never get fired if they are on time They're respectful and they don't steal right like the basic Tenants of being a good human being as long as they're being a basic good human being on the course. They're great

Yeah, they maybe don't get a promotion this year. Maybe they got to wait till next year. But the basic thing is as long as they're doing, they're great. And so I think that's what's cool about the space that I teach in, right? Agriculture in general, there's things that have to be perfect, but there's so many things that we can screw up as long as we're learning from it, right? And as long as we're providing a space in the classroom to reflect on that stuff, that's what matters. So I guess I have a cheat code, right? Compared to physics teachers or maybe teachers that are teaching biology that are going to go into nursing, right? I get to be a little bit more like.

Spencer Payne: Yeah. Well, a couple more quick hitter questions as we get close to wrapping up here. ⁓ So what, ⁓ if you're chatting with someone who's maybe about to go in the teaching profession or maybe they're in their first year, ⁓ what's the number one piece of advice that you might give to a teacher who's about to go into this profession or in their first year, knowing that that first year can be chaotic and stressful and create burnout? So what might you advise for that teacher or going back to maybe your first year teaching knowing what you know now, what advice might you give yourself?

Carson Letot: Yeah, I think there's two things, right? You've got to listen to like the feedback that you're giving yourself as you're going through it. And it's one of those things like when you go to the gym, right? You're working out and you might be feeling the burn. If you feel that burn and it's like, yeah, that that hurts, but I but I like it, right? I know I'm getting stronger. ⁓ That's like positive feedback to you, right? That it's like, OK, I'm doing the thing that I should be doing. If you're teaching and you're feeling a little bit of the stress of the lesson planning in the late nights and the grind but ultimately you're getting enough feedback that you enjoy it. It's just, you've got to deal with it. ⁓ Then I think that that's a good sign, right? Like follow your gut that you're hearing. And then I think the other part of it is just knowing that that first year, like, yeah, you're building the foundation for your house. And then that second year, you're refining the stuff, the, you know, the instructional materials that you've built and the lessons that you've designed, the assessments that you've delivered. ⁓ But then as long as you're not having to reinvent the wheel and in that second year, it's refinement.

Then ultimately it's like that third, fourth year is the happy place where you've built everything. And now it's just the small little touch-ups. So you've built the foundation, you've built the house. Now it's just a matter of putting in new windows, right? New siding. And so I'd say for a lot of those new teachers getting in, if you're getting that feedback where it's hard, but it's okay, right? And that you enjoy it, but it's, it's hard, but you enjoy it. And you're, you're thinking, yeah, like this, I'm not forcing myself to do it. Like it's, it's still something that I want to do. And it's still like Monday mornings. I'm excited to go to school, that positive feedback, trust your gut. And then I think the second one, just knowing that each year you do it, you're not, you're not going to have to redo each year. Like the year one should be hard, but then year three should be easy, right? As long as you're going through your process. So, ⁓ I experienced that when I was a high school science teacher and it was great. And then when I came here and started running this program, ⁓ yeah. And now we're to the point where my lessons are done. And now I get to go and do this really cool thing that the best teachers do, right? 

And the best science teachers are where we go out there and we look for new and emerging technologies and new and emerging research that's been done. And now those lessons that have been built, we can bring that in and refine them and keep updating them and fine tuning them. And so like every year, my goal is that every lesson that I deliver and every lesson plan that I put together is perfect. It's never going to be, but now I get to chase, right? I don't have to just like tread water to survive. Now I'm thriving and now I'm getting to chase that. So yeah, for those new teachers, just have faith that that first year is building the foundation, building the groundwork, clearing the land and that your two or three are the times where you really want to down

Spencer Payne: And what's something that you do maybe on the first day of a new class ⁓ with new students that you do ⁓ to help just set the tone for the expectations that you have, that students should have, et cetera? What's something that you do, maybe you've tweaked over the years on day one to just set the expectation of what folks should expect in your class?

Carson Letot: Yeah, so day one, I think that's that balance of your classroom norms, right? At building your system. But then it's also the students being comfortable with you and each other. So it's a little bit of the havesies, right? Like day one can't just be the syllabus and then you skedaddle, right? Like day one has got to be, yeah, here are the expectations for the class. Here's the system that we're working out and putting in place. But then they've got to be comfortable with each other because that is, I think truly that is the hallmark and the strength of this style of education with a cohort model where we bring in the students and they're together for a year and they're working in this career technical education space ⁓ is they have to network with each other. They become a family together. And a lot of times what's cool for my students, a lot of them play golf. So then they end up like their connections in class turn into like the foursome's they go play with on the weekend. They get each other out on their respective courses. So it starts day one identifying, you know, with each other, like similarities, where each other work, if they play golf or not.

So I'm doing a lot of the facilitation of group work and giving them something to talk through together. So that way the person next to them is not a stranger. They know everything about them. And then the person across from them at their table becomes a really cool acquaintance, right? So a little bit of the syllabus stuff, but then a lot of it of, and I ask them really hard questions in class to that first day to chew on that don't have a right or a wrong answer. And then I do a lot of talking with them and then they have to go through like a little case study and produce a more local. Yeah, so the age old question right now is with grass, right? Like what, how do you measure what is good grass? How do you measure what are the good turf system? Right? Because you can look at color. You can look at the amount of biomass that's building. You can look at its performance, right? How fast a ball is able to roll across that green.

Spencer Payne: What's an example of one of those questions?

Carson Letot: Or do you look at a diverse system? Do you want a bunch of weeds and a bunch of different plants also growing with the grass to facilitate more pollinators? So how do we measure what is good grass? And that's an easy one, right? Because they can chew on that one all day long. And what's cool is I can ask that question at the beginning of the year where they bring in their background knowledge and all they know at that point in time to answer it. And then at the end of the year, you could go on for two class periods, right? You could do easily four hours worth of conversating amongst them to work it out like okay.

What is the answer? What are we willing to at least put forth as a potential answer? So yeah, that's selfishly for me as a nice little pre post assessment Just asking that question and then just sit back But ⁓ yeah, that'd be a good example of one so asking like back in the day We call those like wicked problems, right? So putting out a wicked problem just knowing that you've got a lot of variables to try to put forth a sensible answer And so yeah, they're gonna talk with each other at their tables and they get the gist of art of the class that our content has some concrete black and white stuff, but oftentimes our content is up for interpretation. Yeah, and that's in science, right? Good science teachers, I think, are putting things out there that like it depends answer, right? And students become comfortable with that as long as they can justify and leverage their answers with some proof. So yeah, that's always the dream is to get that out.

Spencer Payne: There's a little gray. Yeah.

Yeah. And, as a quick one, I love the, mentioned, you know, potentially having more pollinators or how fast the ball moves on the grass. Like on some level, the answer to that question also depends on, well, what, what is my course trying to accomplish? Am I trying to be the most beautiful course that, that, that we can have?

Am I trying to be a very economical course where it's public and people can play and it's reasonable and it's a balance of good looking functional? Am I trying to have the best golf played and I don't care about ambiance? Like what am I trying to accomplish can help shape the answer to that question also. Cause there's an assumption that, well, we want to make the, what is, what is best, right? So there's, there's, that's another way of framing that question depends on what you're trying to accomplish with your course. ⁓

Carson Letot: Yeah, it's almost like more sensible questions that can be asked is critical thinking. And I think all educators out there like that's the that's what we want to get to eventually is the student that can critically think the best. And so I think one being able to ask more questions than two having ownership over that topic area and those questions. So those those students having a lot of pride in their golf course and the way that their golf course does things and then talking through the answers that you were talking about, right? Based on their experience.

Like that's the ownership that we want to look for because then those students are sustainably engaged in the content. And so for a lot of educators out there, you know, I think that's probably like what we're trying to work on is critical thinkers. But I think a lot of times the secret answer to that is ownership over that. And those students like, you know, wanting to answer that question because they have a personal stake in it. Then that leverages the engagement and the critical thinking moving forward. So yeah, I'm very lucky that my, students get a paycheck, you know, as part of the content that they're absorbing.

But I think a lot of educators out there can find creative ways to do that,

Spencer Payne: What is the single best thing to you about this profession?

Carson Letot: I think the variability, you know, I get that question asked a lot. And yeah, does that give me gray hairs? Well, I guess a couple here. ⁓ Yeah, because my students, you know, every day can be very different human beings depending on what has happened for the, you know, 22 hours outside of my classroom. ⁓ But that variability ultimately, I think, leads to sustainability in a career. And so for those teachers that get burned out out there, I feel terrible for them, ⁓ you know, because whatever things have happened to lead to that.

⁓ But I think that there's probably ways to bump up the variability a little bit. And I think if you're meant to be a teacher, like that variability is kind of the thing you thrive on, right? Is that you're going to have, like you might have that same lesson you've taught 10 years in a row, but you have completely different human beings that are walking into that classroom to do it. And I love that. I love the idea that I can be 65 and still be teaching this class and things will be different every single day. And that's how I can see myself like in this as a career. And that's what I love about it is man, I don't feel like I'm in a factory. Like I feel like every single day I'm out there and it's the wild west and it's awesome.

Spencer Payne: Yep. And what's the single worst or toughest thing about this profession?

Carson Letot: So I think that my answer back in the day when I was teaching at the high school level definitely would have been ⁓ like the trust in the students and the interface with the parents. Just like man, like that student really let me down, you know with how they acted or what they did, or I had a parent that interacted with me ⁓ because of something that the students said that really didn't represent the you know the situation and yeah, so that trust sometimes was a bummer. Now it's like the same thing.

It's that trust. But now it's when my students like it, I can boil it down to the one singular thing that that gives me any kind of gripe is when my students don't show up to class. Like when I get a text and my students know we norm this at the beginning that as long as they let me know ahead of time, one minute before class, hey, like I'm going to be gone today for a reason. Then that's an excused absence. And they have a certain amount of those. And I appreciate that from them. And that's an expectation that I norm at the beginning that we use communication to be professionals.

But man, it still drives me nuts when I get that text. Like I just I'll see it and it'll be like, I got to, you know, go take my dog to the vet. And I'm like, my gosh, like we're an animal going to the vet. But again, and it kind of brings a full circle right to the beginning. I've got to be patient because yes, as much as it annoys me that you're taking your dog to the vet, that's why you're missing class. That might be an individual. I've had two different military veterans that have service animals and that service animal is like their lifeline. Right. So it's a big test for me to just stop, remember who that is. Remember that that dog actually is way more important than anything they're going to do in my class. So I can, I can give them a day off, you know, knowing that they're going to be back to class and I'm going to have them for the rest of the year. So, the single hardest thing is definitely the absences and just the stuff that happens to get in the way of them being in the seat and me delivering them content, building relationships with them. but at the same time, it's always a good test for me, right? Like it continues to refine and sharpen and push me to be a better human being because I need to keep practicing that empathy.

Spencer Payne: Yep. And what, ⁓ any last words of wisdom that you'd like to share that maybe we just didn't have a chance to get into or anything that maybe you did share, but it's just so important that you want to go re-highlight, double underline just because we want to make sure doesn't get lost. So any new or repeated words of wisdom.

Carson Letot: Yeah, I think as a teacher, like you can't get stagnant, right? You got to keep refining your craft. And I have a lot of ⁓ pride in what I do as a craft, right? Like I feel like a professional, like I'm a professional teacher. I'm very good at what I do. And it's like, you know, the little bit of the arrogance there, but it's also like, think every teacher has to have a little bit of that chip on the shoulder, right? Just like an NBA player, like is good at shooting a basketball and they have to have that swagger, right? It makes them better.

So like I take a lot of pride in teaching me my craft and I went back and got like a second and a third degree after I was done with my bachelor's degree because I wanted to become a better teacher. I engage and go do professional development things. Back in the day as a high school teacher, I was going to, you know, teacher professional development sessions and seminars and camps. And then now I go to professional associations to present research that I do. And it's all in the, all in the effort in the vein of getting better as a teacher, Like perfecting the craft. And so I got a master's degree and I have a PhD as well, I like, I think the PhD probably transformed me the most as an educator because I really dug into the research behind good teaching practices. And now it's refined and made me a better me. But I think the spark got lit when I got my master's degree because I finished up my teacher preparation program. I student taught and I thought I was a hot dog.

And then when I went back and got my master's, then it was like, well, wait a minute, but there's still a lot of content areas that I could still dig into. And there's still another level of expertise in my subject area that I could still keep working on. And so getting that master's was that spark that got lit. And it was all of sudden, wait a minute. And I, my master's experience was pretty cool. Like I got to go back and take some different classes that supplemented like my, my teacher toolbox. So I took a food science class because I knew I'd be teaching a food science class after I was done with that program. So as I was taking it as a student, yeah, I was completing assignments, but I was also plundering and pilfering all of them. Yeah, I was downloading every single one of those lectures knowing that yeah, I'm going to actually be delivering this the next year. So like a little bit of a metacognitive thing there. But ⁓ yeah, those those secondary degrees that you get after after you get through your teacher preparation, like that's the pay bump is great, right? Let's let's be realistic. The pay bump's great. But at the same time, like that is the time to perfect your craft.

Those are the times to differentiate yourself from just the teacher that goes in at in the morning and clocks out in the afternoon to like somebody that transcends, right? And actually transforms lives. And I think that that's we, we as educators have to have a lot of respect to those, those folks that have done it, but then also for us, right? Like continue to keep pushing that, that education and the more of it you get is the better because that is our industry. That's our profession.

Spencer Payne: It's most simple, like you get better at your job when you get better at your job. You get more confidence when you get more competent. And the more you approach it being a craftsman or a craftswoman, ⁓ usually the more fun you have, ⁓ the more your students love your class, and the more great feedback you end up getting. It all gets better when you get better.

Carson Letot: Yes. ⁓

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And you have to keep getting better until the end of your career, right? Like it's gotta be a, yep, I can continue to climb the mountain and I don't go down the mountain until I retire kind of thing. So yeah, I mean, that's like a grind mentality, right? But at the same time, it's a grind, but I'm also doing what I love, right? And I've identified that. So like, I'm very happy being on the grind. And I think a lot of educators out there feel the same way in their boat, right? Like, yeah, I'm up late on a Sunday night grading papers, but like, this is my profession, this is what I'm really good at. So I'm up late, but I'm loving it because this is what I'm good at doing. so, yeah, I think it's a cool thing for us educators that have found that. And for those that have not yet, ⁓ guess I would challenge them to keep trying to pursue different ways to do it. Because I think that there's different ways to do it to have that same path whole kind of feeling. So I think it's exciting. And then people that are getting into the industry, I know there's a lot of tough things out there, right? And the way that we have to deliver education and sort of what the next 10 years looks like.

But man man, when you talk to the teachers that are passionate about what they do, ⁓ I think they'll all say the same thing, that they love it because of the variability and they love it because ⁓ what they get to do is they get to transform people's lives. So I'm very selfish in that, that I get to do a profession that really helps people.

Spencer Payne: Well, thanks so much for sharing your story, Carson. Great to have you here. again, thanks so much for sharing the wide ranging story and the last principle there of just go approach this like you're a crass person and just go get really good at this. Thank you.

Carson Letot: Awesome. Thank you.