Making it About the Students with Jake Knapp 

Please note, this transcript is generated by AI and may include some errors. 

Spencer Payne: Okay, here we are with more fun with front of the class real stories from real educators today with Jake Knapp. Jake, can you share a little bit about your teaching story? Real quick, just the quick facts. Where do you teach? What subjects? Maybe how long you've been doing it? Public versus private? Maybe how big is your school? Things like that. So can you share a little bit about, about kind of to other educators who might be interested in those similar questions. Where do you teach all those teaching details about where you are today?

Jake Knapp: Sure, yeah. I'm a currently I'm a high school socialized teacher at Aurora City Schools, which is a suburb of Cleveland in Northeast Ohio. This is my 10th year teaching will be in August. And then it'll be my fifth year at Aurora. So before I was at Aurora, I kind of bounced around a little bit trying to find sort of the right fit. my journey was a little like long winded, I guess you could say so.

Started in a charter school down in Canton, which was more or less dropout recovery. And then I taught for a year part time at my alma mater before going to another suburban district for two years and then landing where I'm at now. So I currently teach world history and government.

Spencer Payne: All right, perfect. Well, we're definitely going to explore a little bit of the bouncing around between schools before you kind of found your fit here. But first, curious, how did you get into teaching in the first place? Like what drew you to it? What made you decide to be a teacher? Maybe how old were you? Can you help us understand a little bit about your teacher origin story?

Jake Knapp: Sure, yeah. So when I was in college, I started as a broadcast journalism major and I did that because it sounded like a good idea, but the more I thought about it, I was like, that's not really a good fit for much of anything that I want to do. And I got to thinking about, you know, well, who are people that can make an impact? Who are people that have had an impact on me? And the answer was teaching. I did some tutoring in college as well that I thought, I was like, I'm pretty good at this. The next semester, I only lasted a semester in broadcast journalism, but the next semester I switched my major to integrated social studies and the rest is history. So that was kind of like the brief thought process of it all.

Spencer Payne: Perfect. Then it sounds like reality, like maybe reality strikes, right? Of like your first, you bounced around to a couple of different schools, a couple of different school districts, et cetera. Can you, can you explore and help us understand a little bit of how did you get that first start? was that just a starting point? Like the people just say, just say yes to the first opportunity. You can always change later. Cause you bounced around a little bit. So you can help us understand kind of getting that first job and then, 

Did it feel like a good fit? You just wanted something else? Did it feel like a bad fit? Like what's the rationale that I'm behind kind of jumping around to a couple of different schools earlier in your career before you found where you are now?

Jake Knapp: Sure, yeah, so it was both like a rational thing and kind of a next step thing, if that makes sense. At Canton, when I was there, was, when I came out of college, there was not a lot of opportunities for social studies candidates. Like there was a lot of us and not a lot of jobs. So it was quite literally like, this is my one opportunity, I better take it.

And then after two years there, I had an opportunity to public school, which was always the goal for me is to kind of end up at a public school somewhere and you know, my alma mater had an opportunity. had some connections there and, that worked out at a part-time capacity. And I only stayed there one year and it, you know, it was going to be the same thing had I stayed longer. But I had an opportunity at Strongsville where I came in and interviewed pretty well. And, know, it turned into a full-time thing over there. So.

And then my current job, so after two years at Strongsville, my wife and I moved towards the east side of Cleveland and there was an opening at Aurora where I'm currently at. And I threw my application in just to kind of see what would happen and lo and behold, it worked out. So instead of a 40 minute drive to work, my drive to work is 10 minutes and both the Strongsville and Aurora are pretty great school districts. But I got to go from one excellent school district to another, and that's kind of how I ended up where I'm at right now.

Spencer Payne: Perfect. Can you share a little bit more about this journey from there's not lot of jobs and there's a lot of us. So you kind of had this one opportunity, In Canton to then now a couple of school districts a couple of years later, right? You find an excellent district in Strongsville, an excellent district in Aurora. And it sounds like, you you've risen to more the...

the cream of the crop, so to speak, of when there's an opening, you apply, you're able to get it even in a great school district. So can you share a little bit about that transition from like, I got to take whatever's available and prove myself. And now it seems like you have proven yourself. So can you share a little bit like how have you proven yourself? Like how do you stand out now amongst so many applicants to be the one to rise above and get these jobs in great school districts that you're really going after? Like what, what, did you showcase? Like what stood out?

Like did they share with why they chose you, can you share a little bit more about for other teachers out there who might be thinking, I just took the one thing I could get, now I wanna go over there, what did you do or what can they do to set themselves up to go get that next job that they might really want?

Jake Knapp: Yeah, I think in my situation, it was two things. I think the first thing is connections and having those connections at different school districts and things like that. Just to get my foot in the door. That was big. Not necessarily that that's what got me the job because it didn't, but it helps to, as I grew in my teaching career, I was able to meet different people and find new people that had connections at other places and they knew me. That helps me out. And I think the other piece of that is just how the reputation that I was able to kind of develop for myself. Coming out of college, you don't really have a whole lot to like hang your hat on as far as, you know, how are you as an actual teacher? Like, what do you like in the classroom and stuff like that. But as I kind of went through and these job opportunities presented themselves, you know, there was always somebody that knew somebody like, hey, I know Jake, he's, he does this, this, this, and he's, you know, he does a good job.

And I think that that helped as well. And once I get in the door and go into the interview, then I can really get into who I am as a person and as an educator. I think that that helps. definitely putting yourself out there as much as you can, is a huge advantage, at least in my story.

Spencer Payne: Yep. Perfect. And you mentioned, you know, Hey, other people say like, Hey, Jake does a good job. How, how do you judge that for yourself? If you're doing a good job, because there's all kinds of ways you could try to suss that out, right? Between test scores or just, you know, parents saying thank you or students who are engaged, who really like, enjoy the class. Maybe they didn't get a great test score. So like, there's a lot of qualitative test score stuff. There's a lot of, that's quantitative, sorry. And then qualitative, like just how people make you feel or compliments.

So how do you get a sense of, I doing a good job? Do people like me as a teacher? Could I be doing better? Like, how do you, how do you judge that for yourself that you're doing a good job at the end of the year?

Jake Knapp: Man, that's a hard question because there's so many pieces, parts to that. I think for me, in my job as an educator, I try to judge myself based on a few things. I think the first thing is the relationships that I have with my students first and foremost, the parents and my colleagues as well. And I think...

Spencer Payne: I know.

Jake Knapp: That's the biggest thing. I think the other thing that I kind of judge, you know, at least the day to day stuff on is how am I, you know, rationalizing what I'm doing? You know, am I doing it to get through the day or do I have a sound reason behind, you know, what I'm doing and how I'm doing it? I think that that's part of it. Because if I can justify that in my head and I can work that out, I feel successful. Like that's, that's to me is successful. Like if I know why I'm doing something and how I'm going to do it and it works or it doesn't work, you know, you can go from there. But I think that that's to me is a successful teacher because every day is different to where, and that's the cool part about teaching every day is different to where it's going to be a challenge and you got to wake up for that challenge or, or, you know, you'll do just an okay job, you know, then that's fine.

But to really do a good job, you have to be able to kind of think through those things. I the last thing too, like what, no, I think the last thing too is definitely like where I'm at right now is test scores a little bit, but that all goes back to, know, how am I treating my students? How am I, you know, working with my colleagues and things like that. Like that all takes care of itself on the backend to me.

Spencer Payne: And on that, that, ahead, go ahead, go ahead.

Yep, perfect. And this concept of, I rationalize what I'm doing and why, what's the reason behind maybe why I'm teaching this lesson this way? Can you maybe share any specifics about that? Any lessons that maybe you've transitioned from, I'm just teaching this because I have to, to...I'm gonna teach it this way. Here's why. Here's what I'm really trying to convey. Here's why that should matter. Can you share any recent examples of kind how you bring that to life?

Jake Knapp: Sure, yeah. So I think, you know, for me, you know, being a social studies teacher, I have an opportunity to kind of really show kids what's relevant in their lives as far as like I'm teaching government and world history right now. So for government, that's an easy one. Where, you know, you can pull up the newspaper and kind of, you know, pull that out and go from there. And then world history is kind of the same thing. You get the same lessons there. So I think in terms of how to get there, it really comes with a little bit of experience and again kind of knowing different methods and different practices of doing it.

I think I've kind of developed that over my teaching career in terms of just being a learner. Just being able to take stuff and hey I'm going to try that tomorrow or I'm going to try that next week or something like that. think that that's a big part of it. So it's not so much, we're going to read the textbook today. It's, well, no, we're going to look at this thing that's happening in real life. Then we're going to have a discussion on it. And then we're going to do x, and z to kind of get there. So I don't know if that quite answers the question.

Spencer Payne: Yeah. I mean, I looked, let's dig, like what, what's an example of maybe something you looked at from the newspaper and like, we're going to talk about this and here's what we hope to convey or learn, or maybe how that strengthens. Like we learned in the textbook that it's supposed to read, you know, this is the rule or this is what the founders thought, but like, here's what's really happening. Like, how do we convey these? So, so any, any actual real world examples where you thought this is a crazy news headline, I'm going to bring this in the class tomorrow. We're having a discussion about it and what happened.

Jake Knapp: Sure, yeah.

Yeah, towards the end of the year, this school year, there's a court case going on right now that has a lot to do with like birthright citizenship and the 14th Amendment. And we were done with testing and things too, but it could have easily just as easily fit into the regular curriculum. But we looked at, you know, that court case and what the 14th Amendment said and what the kids think. And then what we did was we took a couple of like opinion based articles and, you know, I had the kids look at them and they had to come up with a claim of their own with some evidence and some reasoning as to why, what side are you on in this story for birthright citizenship for children of illegal immigrants?

And it kind of brought it to life as far as, and it really kind of gets kids to think through like, well, wait a second, do I really believe what I think I believe? Because they're still trying to figure that out, especially as a teenager, you hear a lot of like what you see on social media and what your parents are saying, but do you really think through and believe what you want to believe? And for that particular lesson, I was able to get the kids there. A couple of them really thought about, well, hey, is that really what I think? So that was kind cool to see.

Spencer Payne: Yeah, always, always fascinating when you dig into the next layer of questioning and why, why, or how would that work? Um, cause it's so easy to just, it's so easy to not go there. Um, and then when you have to go there, it can be a little uncomfortable. It can also be really fun because you're actually thinking through like, I remember.

Jake Knapp: Right.

Spencer Payne: High school, like going through similar stuff of, like John D Rockefeller and, you know, the rebates with, ⁓ railroads, but he was also more efficient. So like, why shouldn't his cost be lower? Because he was providing a much easier way of loading and unloading all the cargo and standardizing it all. So was more efficient. So why shouldn't he get better rates? And it was like, Hey, let's debate this class. Like should the biggest behemoth get lower rate, isn't that no different than just going to Walmart and buying the 18 pack versus the one pack at the convenience store? Don't we get better rates when we buy in bulk also? And it was just, there's just these interesting nuances that you can have and we start to ask, well, why should that be? Especially when you, as the teacher don't come from, not trying to, I'm not, I'm not actually not trying to point you in any direction. I'm just asking like, well, why do you think that? Well, how does it work in this context? and it's just a fascinating conversation you can have where you open up genuine curiosity when you just ask why.

Jake Knapp: Right, and I think that's where the learning happens. I mean, in your example, yeah, if you know John D. Rockefeller and this stuff, you'll be fine for the test. But I think where the real thinking and the learning happens is in those conversations. So I think any time you can create an environment where that happens, and it's not an easy thing to do all the time. Sometimes it's hard, but when you can create those conditions, it's ideal.

Spencer Payne: Yeah. you mentioned earlier that first six months broadcast journalism, and then this is maybe not what I want to do. And so who has had an impact on me in my life and what kind of impact do I want to have? And you mentioned teachers had a large impact on your life to that point. Can you share? And obviously that was in college that may have been, you've been teaching now for 10 years. That might've been 15 years ago. So there's much more context since then, but can you share any educators, who particularly just do a great job who you emulate and what about them is it that you're like, ooh, I like the way they do that. I wanna do more of it like they do. So can you share any teachers who you really emulate or appreciate and what is it about them that you think they do so well from either when you were in high school or maybe even teachers you've worked with or working with now.

Jake Knapp: Yeah, mean, so I got a couple in particular, but like I was fortunate to go to a school where you had a lot of teachers that were on the same page as far as building relationships with kids and making them feel like they mattered. So for me, I think the biggest one though was probably my seventh grade social studies teacher. And I don't know if I necessarily try to emulate him, but he did a great job of building relationships with kids and maintaining a high level of expect like very high level of expectation for his students and you know seventh grade me you know walking in the first day like you were deathly afraid of him but by the end you kind of figured him out and stuff like that.

You know so to me, I think what sticks with me is is him for the most part and we'll still talk occasionally he's retired now but I really appreciate how he kind of goes about building relationships with kids and how he talks to kids, not just like to get a point across, but so they actually learn something. And, you know, and he's an expert at that. You know, I think, and then from there too, like I've got other other people that, you know, I've made relationships with, like my high school baseball coach was very important growing up. And, you know, I pulled some things too that that I've used throughout my educational career that I've gotten from other people too.

For example, my freshman baseball coach, so, you know, wrote letters at the end of freshman year to every kid on his team. And I thought that was a great idea. So that's what I did, you know, just stuff like that. I think, you know, it was really kind of like what made me want to become a teacher. Just, you know, the fact that you felt cared for and appreciated in some type of way by, you know, another person is meaningful. And that kind of, to me adds value as opposed to you know, maybe sticking with broadcast journalism or finding another career path.

Spencer Payne: Yeah. I'd love to transition out of maybe some more specifics kind of in the classroom, especially just really memorable stories after you've spent 10 years now in the classroom. Do you have any coolest moments, proudest moments in your teaching career so far? Something that maybe you did or that the students did or something happened that just made you smile and that you as you look forward to when you're 80 years old, you're probably still be smiling over that moment. So any, any proudest moments from the classroom and your 10 years teaching.

Jake Knapp: Well, there's one that comes to mind like four years ago and I can't like, it's gonna sound weird to explain it, but like it was, it's one of the craziest stories and like, but also probably made me like laugh the hardest that I've ever laughed in my entire teaching career. so it's Mother's Day, right? Or something like that. Mother's Day was over the weekend or something. And we had a test in freshman world history. And I had a kid, who complete like total goofball, like every chance he got, was, you know, like, like he was just one of those kids that like, he was the center of attention and you know, he knew it and he was going to let you know it too. but him and I, we had a pretty good relation. Yes, exactly. Yep. Yes. He, yeah, he is very good at it. So, so it was, I had him third period and we had a test that day, in world history and,

Spencer Payne: We've, we've got the class, we've got the class clown. We've got the class clown scenario and he's, he's actually very good at it. Okay.

Jake Knapp: My second period class, they're like, oh, watch out for, watch out for so-and-so. He's, and I was like, you know, I was like, okay, like watch out. What do you mean? And I was like, all right, he must be in a bad mood today or whatever. don't know. Like it is what it is. So third period rolls around and a bell rings and I start passing out the test and he's not there. And it's like, all right, whatever. Like I'm going through doing what I'm doing. And like I said, it mother's day happened like over the weekend or something that and you know about five minutes go by I'm like I explained the test I passed it out and like I'm mid passing it out and like he walks in with like an 11 by 17 sheet of paper with dandelions like that he went and picked during his second period study hall on the paper and it said like happy Mother's Day Mr. Naff like so I don't know like what the thought process was like behind all of that and he had like you know like the wedding music going on and like on his phone in his pocket it's like dude, what are you doing?

So, you know, needless to say, he put that up on my, my cupboard in my room and that's where it stayed for the rest of the year. And so, but I don't know. I think that that, you know, like not only is that like, you know, a weird thing for a kid to do, cause it's super weird, but it was, it was also pretty funny. And but I think to me, like that kind of shows, you know, like if a kid's willing to do that, like, you know, as weird as it is. I don't know, like, yeah. I think that that's a level of like, hey, like I've won that kid over. So.

Spencer Payne: Yeah, he's not going to do that if he's fearful of the teacher or doesn't like the teacher, especially it sounds like it was done in a fun, endearing, enjoyable, respectful manner. He's not going to do that for just anybody.

Jake Knapp: Yeah, and explaining the story, sounds weird and crazy as hell, but it was really funny at the time.

Spencer Payne: Yeah. Yep. And any, any particularly tough times in your career, anything that was just, man, really like it's more than just a bad day, right? Maybe it's a bad week, bad month, you know, maybe you're questioning like, am I even in the right place? Am I doing the right thing? Like, so any, any tough times in your, in your career that you've experienced what happened and obviously you've continued on, you're doing this for 10 years. So how did you, or how do you bounce back when those tough moments happen? Because no doubt they do.

Jake Knapp: Yeah, so I think for me, I think the toughest time that I had as a teacher was for sure my first three years. So being down in Canton, that was a tough crowd to work with. Not that they all weren't there and, and, and, you know, we had some very good kids there, but that was tough just on the day to day of, you know, attendance and things like that. And then my first year in like a real classroom at Kent, my alma mater was also a tough, like, learning experience too, because I just didn't have the background. And I think that translated into a lot of tough, tough days, tough weeks, quite a bit to where it's like, do I even really want to do this?

But I think what got me out of that, and I think what gets people out of that is how you approach the situation, right? So, you know, for me, like, you know, I could teach the worst lesson in the world and you still have kids excited to see you the next day. Even if it's one or two, that's a win. So it's all in how you approach it. I think that I've learned to kind of like, hey, we're just gonna learn from this and get better. I think that that's a big thing. Because it's easy to, in teaching, it's really easy to be like, oh, the sky is falling. So like you teach a bad lesson or you've got all these papers to grade or you've got a parent that's mad at you, but...

For every situation you have like that, you've got just as many, if not more, are totally the opposite.

Spencer Payne: And is there anything that you've done in your teaching career pretty consistently that seems to work really well for you? And maybe you're surprised more teachers don't do that thing or those things that you do. And maybe it's taking something in the newspaper and just taking current events and applying them to the classroom, right? Just to make up something that we've heard that you do earlier. But anything that you do consistently in the classroom that others don't do and you're surprised they don't because they seem to work really well for you.

Jake Knapp: so I don't want to speak like for, for all teachers here, obviously, but like, there are some things that I think that I do that are a little bit different. I, in my classroom, I, I try to put a big focus at least as much as I can on, you know, being student centered as possible. So, you know, instead of, Hey, like I'm going to lecture you for 20 minutes. Here you go. I'll try to put it back on the kids quite a bit in terms of how I'm delivering the content or how they're learning it or how they're showing that they know it. I try to do quite a bit of that and I think that that helps in terms of getting the kids to own the class and ultimately wanting to be there. Like I said, I teach world history and government, so that class can be either be as fun or as boring as you make it. That's one thing that I think, at least in my experience, I still think teachers of hang their hat on lecturing a little bit and not saying that lecturing you shouldn't do or you can't do.

And I think there's a time and place for everything, but I think that that's one thing that I think that I do a little bit differently for me that I kind of found a little bit more rewarding because kids do take ownership of, you know, what they, you know, what they're in charge of basically. you know, if you can make it fun for them, that's a plus too. And I think that helps do it.

The other thing too that I think that I do that is a small thing every day is like I'm at the door greeting kids, know, like every day, like in between classes and stuff like that. And you you always say, hey, you know, call them by their name. And I think that that makes them feel seen. And that's, I think another thing that like as teachers, we're very busy and we overlook a lot, but the little things add up. So.

Spencer Payne: Yep. And anything that you're really looking forward to over the next three, six, nine, 12 months, you pick the timeframe. We're recording this right now. It's kind of summertime. So maybe it's just having a little bit of a break. But yeah, anything that, is there anything that you're looking to incorporate in the next year's curriculum that is new that you haven't tried before that you're excited by? So anything that you're looking forward to in the next three, six, nine, 12 months, you pick the timeframe. That's just got me particularly energized.

Jake Knapp: Yeah, so for me, I think what I'm energized about right now is I'm attending a summer academy. It's called the Edge of Protocol Summer Academy in California at the end of July, which is a, went last year when it was in Indiana and it was a great opportunity to connect with like other educators who kind of think like me. And I'm really excited for that because that's a great opportunity to get network and talk with peopleand refine my craft a little bit. I think that's what's energizing me. And then once we get into the school year, using some of those things that I've learned and some of the stuff that I've used over the summer to kind of, you know, into practice and see how it goes and just keep, you know, getting a little bit better every day as far as being a teacher. So I think that's the most thing I think I'm most excited about. I'm also because I coach baseball as well. I'm also excited to be able to go to school at 740 and leave at three o'clock. So, you know, that will be nice when we get back to school.

Spencer Payne: Yeah.

Yep. I'm sure you look forward every year to that baseball season, but also look forward to that fall where there's no practice, there's no games. There's the ability to just kind of like have a little bit of a shorter schedule. A couple more, more rapid fire, quick hitter type of questions as we wrap up. But what, like, I'm sure you've seen new teachers come into the profession. What do you share with them?

Jake Knapp: Right, exactly.

Yep.

Spencer Payne: As the number one piece of advice, right? If there's a new teacher coming in, in a couple of months, when you start a new school year and you know, they're asking, you know, Mr. Nap 10 years, you seem to be doing this thing really well. What, should I do this first year or these first month or these first three months? Like what's the number one piece of advice you'd give to one of those, teachers who's aspiring to really take this profession by the horns in their, in their first year or first month or first week. what would you give? What advice would you give to that new teacher?

Jake Knapp: My advice for them would be number one, do what's best for kids. And I think as long as you can do that, you're going to be fine. I think the second thing is don't expect it to be perfect. There's stuff that even I do now that's not anywhere close. know, so, and as long as you can take those opportunities that present themselves as negative ones and turn them into positive ones and do something different the next time or improve it then you'll be fine and where you need to be in the end.

Spencer Payne: Yep, give yourself a little grace. How do you set the tone on day one with a new class? Both with the students, maybe how do you approach those first five minutes or the first day? And how do you also approach a new class year with the parents and kind of setting the tone of with both the students and the teach and the parents of your expectations, how you run your class, what you're looking for from them. How do you set that tone at the beginning of the school year with the students and the parents?

Jake Knapp: Sure, so for the kids, I'm always at the door, like again, making sure I'm seen, you know, like and stuff like that. So that's how I start every class. And I think the first day is mostly getting to know kids. I don't typically like to go into like the syllabus and you know, all that junk until the second or the third day sometimes just depending on, you know, what my schedule constraints are.

But getting to know the kids, so that's some relationship-based activity where I'm going to learn a little bit about them, they're going to learn a little bit about me, and we're going to do it in a way that is going to be similar to some of the stuff they're going to do in class. So I've got a couple different strategies that have different names that I'll pull out. And instead of

Spencer Payne: Could you share one? I'd love to hear the details of what's a specific example of what you do.

Jake Knapp: You know, one of the things that we do in, you know, my socialize class a lot for vocab is something called Fast and Curious. So you'll play a game kit, which is like a gamified, you know, trivia thing. You'll play it for three minutes. And then what happens in the meantime is like, we'll pull out the four most missed topics or terms and then I'll mini teach them and then we'll play it again, you know, so.

And we'll play that, you know, we'll repeat it every day for a week. And at the end of the week, you know, you've got kids answering 50 questions, right. And three minutes and missing none. So it's a really effective way to teach vocabulary. In my opinion. So I'll take that and like kind of give the kids a preview of like, Hey, here's what you're to see in my class. But instead of like vocab, it's questions about me, Mr. Knapp or my class or whatever it is. And it's only 10 or 15 of them. So they get to see them over and over again.

That's part of the recursion piece of it. The other thing that I do is a lot of frayer models, like the four quadrant boxes. And they'll have to frayer a friend. So there'll be four questions on it. They'll find a friend and do that. then between the two of them, they have to find a commonality, something that they have in common. And then I have the kids talking a lot as well in class.

So we'll get into like the presentation piece normally on day two of, okay, like you found that commonality. Now I want you to create a presentation on it. But the catch is it has to be the worst presentation ever. So there's a video I show like, like from some comedian of like, here's all the things you don't do in a slideshow presentation. And they have to make the worst presentation on, you know, whatever they had in common. whether that's cars, cooking, sports, whatever, like, you know, so, but that just like, to me, that kind of sets the tone of like, you know, hey, here's what you're gonna expect in this class. Like you're gonna be asked to do this fast and curious thing every day. Like you're gonna be asked to like, you know, talk and collaborate with friends and then you're gonna have to share that stuff out. So, you know, if I can find a non-threatening way to kind of preview that, which I think that that's the goal, you know, that's kind of how I set it up to begin with.

Spencer Payne: I like that, especially the worst presentation of all time. Cause so many, so many kids and people, people in general, mean, what's the staff that like public speaking is like the number one fear that people have in all of life. No different than in high school or junior high. so that takes the edge off. just like, I bet. Yeah.

Jake Knapp: right? And they get fired up for that too. They're like, wait, this has to be really, really bad? Like, yeah, make it terrible. Like, yes, let's go. Like I can do this. Like, yeah. So it's, always funny to see what they come up with too. Like you'll get some kids that just like, like I tell them, like, you know, you have to, like there's seven rules or something like that. They have to break one rule per slide in their presentation. And then you've got some joker who makes like an 87 slide presentation that's like, all right, you're done.

So, but it's a good way to kind of, you know, get the personalities to come out a little bit and stuff like that before kind of diving into the actual content of the class.

Spencer Payne: Perfect. And real quick, could you restate that trivia game again, real quick? is that something that other, is that something you made? Is that something other teachers can find? So what's the name real quick and where could they find it?

Jake Knapp: It's so it's called fast and curious So it's it's an edge of protocol. So it's not not anything that I came up with at all but, that's where you would find it. If you type in fast and curious edge of protocols, it'll it'll come right up and how to how to do it and stuff like that. But there are several that edge of protocols out there that I highly recommend to like any new teacher like like if you're trying to like find something that's like

Spencer Payne: Perfect.

Jake Knapp: repeatable in class and that you can do with pretty much any content area. That's the way to go. I really wish like I found that earlier in my teaching career because I found it maybe two, three, four years ago and I really haven't started using it until you know, maybe the tail end of the year before last or something like that. So but there's a lot of things where you can take and to me like that's that that's that helps it saves time and the other piece of it is like once kids get familiar with what it is they do in your class every day, they can worry about the content, so much like how I'm going to do this process. So there's my shameless little plug there for Edge of Protocols because I do believe in them.

Spencer Payne: Yep, awesome. And did you get your masters? And if so, when in your teaching journey did you decide to go pursue that and what did that unlock for you?

Jake Knapp: So I decided to get into the game a little bit late. Like I had all my friends telling me, like, you got to go get your masters now. I actually just got mine right before the baseball season started this past February. So I would recommend getting it earlier. And I think for me, like I went through the American College of Education and you know, personal experience with the whole program aside, I think professionally, the positive thing there is, you know, it reminds you a lot of, you know, the stuff that you forget as a teacher like that you should be doing. You know, so that was that to me was a positive experience in that regard.

Spencer Payne: Perfect. And then anything that unlocked for you, right? More pay, the opportunity to go to, you know, if you want to go into administration later or just for you, mean, but why, like if you're already 10 years in, why pursue it? So what was the purpose behind doing it now? What did you gain out of that?

Jake Knapp: So in Ohio, have to get continuing education anyways to renew your license. So that was part of it for me. Like why now? Like I was getting close to the end of my five-year license and I had to do something. But also, you know, more pay as well. Like that's obviously a pretty high incentive as far as that goes. I did mine in curriculum and instruction because for me, I don't really have any aspirations to be an administrator really at all.

But I do want to like, again, it goes back to knowing what you do and why. I want to be the best in my craft and I think that that's how you do it. And I think the only way that you get better at that is if you keep revisiting those things. So.

Spencer Payne: Yep. What to you is the number one single best thing about this profession? Education.

Jake Knapp: I think the relationships you build with kids, I think that that's the coolest part. every day is something different. Every day is a different challenge. Every day is a different vibe. So that's also a cool part as opposed to maybe coming into the office every day and looking at the same spreadsheet or something like that. I don't know what office people do. But that to me is the coolest part.

Spencer Payne: And what's the single hardest or worst thing about this profession? Or if you could just point a magic wand at one aspect and immediately it can change for the better overnight, where would you point that magic wand?

Jake Knapp: I can point in a lot of places. So I think for me, like personally in my job, the single worst part is probably the part that I hate the most is grading. That's what comes with the territory and stuff like that. think that feedback is important and everything, but just the tediousness of that sometimes can be a little time consuming. think too, like,  you know, sometimes it's, you know, like in the job too, like one bad thing comes after another. I think that that can be a little tough sometimes, especially early on in your career. Like that can be sometimes hard to manage a little bit. And I think more broadly, like if I had to point the magic one at one place to like go away, it would be high stakes testing, but that's just me. That's just me. It's part of, it's part of the job. But if I had to, if you gave me a magic wand, that's what I would do with it.

Spencer Payne: And how, if at all, are you and your school embracing or not embracing AI in the classroom for the students to use? And what are you seeing in terms of maybe trends in students' attention span, et cetera? So how, if at all, are you and the school embracing AI? And how is that changing the education experience in your view in the last one to two years?

Jake Knapp: Yeah, so I mean, that's definitely a new challenge. So again, every day is different. So like this is the new thing that, know, reality that we have to face. My school in general, I actually led a professional development on AI and how teachers can use it on their end of it. So we're getting into it as far as like how we as teachers can use it as a tool and how can we let kids, you know, then use it. I think that's the challenge right now for our school, don't we don't block chat, GPT or anything like that.

So we haven't really. You know, ran into it, I guess we haven't really ran away from it. I think for me in my class, like I really tried to make it a productive part of what kids can do, you know, and not all the time, but like, how can how can I, you know, modify lessons to where I can incorporate AI and where I can't, you know, where I want to see, you know, original thinking or whatever you want to call it, how can I create those conditions to where kids are having a conversation and showing what they know or being authentic in how they present stuff? Because it is easy, like as a kid, it's easy for them to like, this is an automatic answering machine. I'm good to go. Like any essay you want me to write, I'm good.

But it all goes back to the conditions that you create as far as, you like, no, you're going to take ownership of this, and this is what you're going to do to show that ownership and stuff like that. So for me, I've used it as an assistant to give kids feedback. Like, class companion is a huge tool in my classroom that I use. There's another one out there called Snorkel that I don't have too much experience with, but I want to learn about it, which is the same thing. That's instant feedback for the kids, and I use it in a productive way.

I guess before when I mean like, you know, as a positive part of classroom, that's what I'm talking about. Not so much like, you know, hey, just use ChatGPT to teach you all about World War II or something like that. To me, that's not productive. that's, you so finding ways to use it as a feedback assistant or use it as a creative thing. I don't know if you remember the, the action figure trend, like people were making themselves into action figures with AI...so finding ways to make it approachable for kids to use in a productive capacity. So in terms of feedback and creativity. So with the AI trend and the superhero trend, I had the kids take Cold War leaders and make them into action figures based on three historic events that they were a part of.

So in terms of bringing AI into the classroom, think that we as educators have to think about how we're presenting our lessons and how can we use it as a tool to help kids then use AI. Because it's not going away, especially for kids. It's not going anywhere. So kids have to be able to use it. And we can't pretend like it's not there.

Spencer Payne: And one more question, Jake, any last words of wisdom, things that you want to share that maybe we just haven't explored yet, or anything that we have explored, but maybe it's just like, you just want to make sure you double underline highlight because it's just that important. So you want to make sure you say that again. So any last or repeated words of wisdom.

Jake Knapp: So I think last words, a couple things. I think the first thing, kind of rehashing what we've already talked about, make it about the kids. And if you're doing what's best for kids, you're doing what you're supposed to be doing as a teacher. I think the second thing is, not every day is going to be perfect. There's going to be mistakes. There's going to be stuff that you have to do over and stuff like that. And think being OK with that matters.

I think the third thing, just professionally and stuff, is be willing to make those connections, be willing to network, be willing to go out and meet new people. For me, it started on Twitter. That's how I connected with several different educators from all around the United States and getting into a lot of the stuff that I'm into now. think that that's an important thing as an educator, because it's really easy, especially at the high school level, to get caught in, I guess you could call it silo of like, I'm going to close my door and teach to really kind of understand what's going on in the broader sense, you have to put yourself out there. If you're able to do that, I think that only helps you in the classroom with the kids and the...

Spencer Payne: I mean, got to ask him very quick follow up. are there any recommended teachers who you follow who you might shout out here that others maybe, should follow or at least give them a chance for a follow.

Jake Knapp: Sure, sure, sure. There's a few. A lot of them again, like kind of fall into that edge of protocols group. So Dominic Helmstetter out of Perrysburg, Ohio has been huge, super helpful to me. He's on Twitter, Dhelmedu. He's a government teacher. Another good one, middle school that I follow is Adam Moeller. He has a blog called Moller's Musings and he wrote one of the Edge of Protocol's books. He's a really good follow.

Another good follow would be John Carrippo. He's kind of like the mastermind behind Edge of Protocols themselves. So those are probably, if you're looking for ideas and stuff like that, they would definitely be great people to go and at least look at their feed and stuff like that and see what exactly is going on, because I believe they have the right idea.

Spencer Payne: Well, Jake, thanks so much for sharing your real stories from a real educator. It's been a pleasure. Thanks so much for sitting down and sharing your story.

Jake Knapp: Thank you for having me.