The Ins and Outs of Teaching Abroad with Rainier Lee 

Please note, this transcript is generated by AI and may include some errors. 

Spencer Payne: Okay. Here we are with some fun with a repeat guest, Rainier Lee with front of the class, real stories from real educators and Rainier for those who maybe didn't catch the first one. Can you just give us a quick, where do you teach? What grades public private school and how'd end up in this particular location that you're teaching right now?

Rainier Lee: Yeah, for sure. So just as a recap for my guess our last episode, but yeah, my name is Rainier. I'm a social studies teacher. I teach grade seven through 10 and I currently live in the Netherlands and I'm an international school teacher. So private, yeah.

Spencer Payne: Yep. Awesome. All right. And we're going to dig into that real quick because you've got this background of going from teaching in Pennsylvania to South Korea, to Honduras, to now the Netherlands. And, when we spoke last time, I just had to learn more because there's just so much more here that just like, how are you making all these moves?

So I'd love to start with maybe the big bucket of just kind of, as you're going from all these different schools, countries, education systems, et cetera. I love the understand a little bit more of the financial impact, the benefits, health insurance, like all these kinds of things of like, if a person was wondering, how do I do that? Let's get into that. So the first one, if maybe you don't share exact dollar amounts, maybe this one's a little more, this one's a little less, however much you're willing to share. But how does, how does just pay compare across all of these countries versus like kind of comparable pay in the United States? Are you making more or are you making less? Is it the same?

And then what nuances do you need to call out? Like maybe it's I get more pay, but I have to do more things. Or you call out some of the nuances. So how are the pay changes from country to country? How does that compare to the U.S.? And then is there any additional color you need to provide that comes with maybe more or less pay?

Rainier Lee: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Well, I guess I want to start with what are the reasons for going abroad? I think that's the biggest question for a teacher. For me, I feel like there are three reasons to go teach abroad. The first, of course, is pay. So we're going to get into that. But I do want to touch on a couple of the other two ones. One is lifestyle. mean, your lifestyle is going to completely change from that as a teacher in the United States. And then the third one would be, yeah, just upgrading your opportunities as a teacher. You go pretty fast with your career. But pay wise, to start on the first one, I want to say that Asia and the Middle East pay the most. So I have taught in South Korea, the pay is pretty high. And the reasons for that, could be just those are richer countries in the world, but also they take education quite seriously.

If I want to compare the three or I guess the four US, Netherlands, Honduras, and South Korea, I can't really just compare it with the pay because I do really think the three things come all connected when teaching abroad. Pay, lifestyle, and career. So yeah, I guess like South Korea pays the most, Honduras paid the least, the Netherlands also doesn't pay as much as you would think because there are high taxes here, but that's also something to get into. But yeah, it's pretty much that.

Spencer Payne: Thank you. And we'll get into some of the lifestyle and career growth things in a little bit too. But can you just maybe compare when we talk about South Korea, maybe paying higher pay, Honduras maybe lower pay, but you also got to consider cost of living, housing, food, all kinds of other things that go with that. And also when you say higher pay, like, we talking like, it's 3 % more or is it like 50 % more or 10 %? So can you give a little more perspective on, for example, South Korea higher pay?

Rainier Lee: Yeah.

Spencer Payne: How significant is that, whether in dollars or percent, whatever you're to share? And does that all just get eaten up by cost of living or how does that impact the equation too?

Rainier Lee: Yeah, great questions like they're layered of question, but I love them. yeah, I'd say so South Korea if you want to have a bachelor's degree, you're probably going to get paid around 40 to 50,000 a year. If you have a master's degree that probably goes up around five to 8000. Depending on the school when it comes to taxes in South Korea, the school typically pays for all of your taxes. So you're really yeah, like for me my last job the school paid for all the taxes.

Spencer Payne: Wow.

Rainier Lee: In South Korea, you also get what's called the yearly bonus. So after 12 months, they give you one month pay for free upfront. then as you're getting paid, yeah, you get paid pretty well. Almost all besides Europe, you get your housing paid for anyways. So like your housing is not going to get eaten up either. So yeah, South Korea, have that in the Honduras. And I want to say most of Latin America, you'll get paid between, I'd say 20 to 30,000 a year.

Spencer Payne: Okay.

Rainier Lee: But again, that's also Latin America where like things are way cheaper. Again, housing is paid for. You have these different things where schools will send you on trainings. Some schools even shockingly will pay for a master's degree. You have all these bonuses. The Netherlands on top of that pays right now. Let me think. I think Euro conversion, I get paid around 60,000 a year. But, big but, you pay around 40 % of that in taxes. So that automatically eats it up. And then on top of that, I have to pay  for my own housing. So living in the Netherlands kind of compares to the US in the sense where we're just teachers, we pay for our housing and so forth. But other places, it's kind of like you have a privileged position and you can save quite a

Spencer Payne: Yeah, I was going to say this is where, this is where if all you're asking is, Hey, how much is the salary, right? You're missing all of these other nuances that can change. Like for example, if you're talking, Hey, a salary with, with a salary without a master's with just a bachelor's in South Korea is 50, 55, 60 K. Um, but your housing is paid, your taxes are paid, uh, and potentially the school will pay for your masters. Uh, and you have this bonus pay of one month, like addition, like

Rainier Lee: Yeah, on top of that too, you get a free trip to your home country once a year. So I'd say the average teacher, even with a bachelor's in South Korea, China, most of Asia, you're saving around 20,000 a year.

Spencer Payne: Yeah, that's which is incredible. And those are all factors to go into the equation of like, if all you look at is just like, what's the salary, you're missing all this other nuance that potentially had like, if the salary is 55, all that other stuff could be worth another 30. Maybe more depending on the cost of housing and the cost of living in a place that that other stuff might be worth another 50. Right? So there's a point I'm making is just there's a, there's a much broader calculation that goes into all of this stuff, housing trip back to United States.

The bonus month taxes, there's a, will you pay for the masters? There's a lot of things to consider beyond just what is the base salary, to try to compare and contrast across these different, these different areas.

Rainier Lee: Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure.

Then you'd have teachers, of course, go to different parts of the world based on what they want. Right. So if you have like a lot of debt, you go to Asia or the Middle East to pay that off. If you want to save, you have some international school teachers retiring in their 40s and 50s. You go you go again to that. mean, I saw a position in Papua New Guinea that paid one hundred and fifty thousand a year untaxed. There are a lot of what I consider like the gold mine of education. But it goes back to those other two questions, your lifestyle and your like, do you want to live in a rainforest in Papua New Guinea?

Spencer Payne: Yeah, yeah. Wow.

Rainier Lee: Teaching like rich gold miners children like that these are these things that you're kind of having to like discuss with yourself and balance your career with it

Spencer Payne: Yeah, 100%. Again, we're not going to only speak about economics. We'll get into some of those things later, but we'll just focus here.

Rainier Lee: But it's I'm glad you actually asked it because these are I want to say one of the key reasons most people go abroad is for economic reasons.

Spencer Payne: Yeah, Yeah, gotcha. And then can you share also a little bit of kind of cost of living? So, you know, for example, I don't know if you happen to remember monthly budgets or anything like that, but, you know, if housing is paid for, U.S. versus Honduras versus Netherlands versus South Korea  about food, how about transportation, how about all this other stuff? What, what, what at a very high level, like what, what did you see as major differences between some of those places in terms of all those other out of pocket costs? And when, when you say a number like Honduras might pay 30 grand a year, like is everything so much less expensive that you're actually in the same place? Like, can, what can you share about and be some of the cost of living differences that you've seen?

Rainier Lee: Yeah, and these are interesting things. Of course, I think this conversation is kind of going to go eventually to where you can find these jobs, which I think will help answer some of these questions as well. But I think, yeah, you could still save around 10,000 to 1500 or 15,000 a year living in a place like Panama, Honduras, El Salvador, or even Colombia. But Korea and of course, these are going to be inflation has risen. We see inflation rise in the US. This has happened all across the world when it comes to housing, food, etc. But yeah, South Korea, I want to say was the best  lifestyle. My wife and I could go out to eat every single night and you'd pay which was probably equivalent to maybe like five or $6 each for a meal. So that's maybe 12 bucks when you're getting around 50,000 and it's untaxed and you're not having to pay for anything. Bonuses on top of that. we really, yeah, as crazy as it sounds, I stopped teaching in South Korea maybe four years ago and we still have savings.

So it's one of those things if you live in Asia or the Middle East, even actually parts of Africa. friends teaching in Ethiopia. You really can live this lifestyle of going out to eat, having entertainment, going on vacations basically every holiday, whether it's in the region or back at your house, home country, and still passively save quite a lot of money.

Spencer Payne: incredible. Now, how in the world are you handling health insurance across all of these countries? Is it paid for? Do you have to go buy it somewhere? How like, it diff? I assume it's different country by country. Like how do you approach health insurance or healthcare in all these places?

Rainier Lee: No, that's a good question. So basically your school covers everything. So your school will cover your visa process, school will cover your healthcare, all of that. You typically get what's like a worldwide coverage. So healthcare that would pay for you when you go back to the States to go visit family. Or if let's say you're teaching in Saudi Arabia and you go vacation in like Bahrain or like Ethiopia or something like that, you'd still have a universal healthcare coverage. So the school typically does that. It's typically a good healthcare because you as a teacher going to these different countries are a specialized job. You really are fulfilling a job in a position that really the school but more so the country needs. So you're really treated, I would say pretty well when it comes to that healthcare. And of course different countries have different stereotypes and different things where you're like, no, I'm gonna come back surviving. Of course you will, right? But the school also like takes that into consideration and gives you guys free healthcare.

So it is nice. Like it's, it's pretty nice, especially coming from the American system where you're like, my gosh, how am going to pay into healthcare, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. Teaching internationally, you're kind of a cushy privileged person.

Spencer Payne: and did you have any direct experience with tapping into that healthcare system? Like any benefits, any costs, any, well, I thought this would be free, but actually I had to pay for this or I was, I went in, I was assuming I was at the pay so much and ended up having my bill with zero. Like, do you have any actual, you know, firsthand experience with you or your wife in kind of tapping into the healthcare coverage in any these countries and how that compared to the U S.

Rainier Lee: for sure.

for sure. I'll use one from Honduras actually. So when I worked in Honduras, my wife actually didn't teach because she was pregnant with our daughter. And that's one thing you want to take into consideration. This is not a young person's lifestyle. You can go with a family and most countries because you are moving abroad and these countries favor a culture of family and a culture of community, they'll pay for your family to come as well. So I was going to Honduras, a single first grade teacher, right? And we had a whole house paid for because we had a family. So when my wife was pregnant, my daughter was born, described that she was, she basically had to have an emergency C-section, right? So emergency C-section happened. were at, I want to say the best hospital in the country because we lived in the economic capital and you have these stereotypes of Honduras being bad. This hospital was amazing. Like this hospital would be like one of the best in America if you compared it. Yeah, emergency C-section. She was in the hospital for, I want to say two days fully because she had to have all types of vitamins pumped into her, et cetera, et cetera.

Baby was born healthy, everything was fine. Go to see, gosh, am I gonna get my liver? Am I gonna get my arm? Am I gonna get my brain? How much do I have to pay for this? It was like $600.

Spencer Payne: Wow. Wow. I don't know what else to say besides wow a third time.

Rainier Lee: Yeah, right, well.

And then I'd say this, if she was born in the United States as well, with that universal health coverage, it'd probably be the same.

Spencer Payne: Yeah. Yeah. okay. So yet another, what seems like, w w yet another, item in the calculation, right? If someone's considering teaching internationally of what might be a scary, my gosh, this is probably going to turn out worse, but actually end up potentially turning out better if the school is paying for it. If you're in a, an economically solid area, maybe a great, great system. Yeah.

Rainier Lee: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then family, family wise too, like it takes away the stress of like, do I have to go live abroad by myself? Like, no, you can bring your family. Like it's, a whole unit. These schools have a systems in place where they kind of expect it and more than, more than most likely they kind of request it to be honest, because when you go with a family, there's less homesickness, there's less, I'm going to quit randomly, less freak outs and stuff like that, because you have a whole unit going, going with you.

Spencer Payne: Yeah. Yeah. Um, now how about, uh, some of the, some of the other things that people consider, you know, as teaching in America, how does that compare things like, Hey, if I'm teaching at the same school, I might be, uh, you know, after 25, 30, 35 years, I might have some sort of a pension where I've got, you know, pay coming on the backend after I retire, or there's potentially 401k or some other tax advantaged accounts. Um, does any like

Does any of that exist? is, what does the state of that look like in teaching internationally? Is there, is there any of that kind of pension, you know, 401k retirement, saving specific accounts on the backend that you can be paying into, or maybe you can still go contribute to a 401k through your international salary. So can you help us understand maybe some of those other, those other considerations around more pension retirement accounts, 401k, that kind of stuff and how that works. If you've navigated that.

Rainier Lee: for sure. Yeah, I guess I two countries that I want to kind of use experiences from one is the Netherlands, one is South Korea. And this of course, this basis on which school you work for, right? So some will be better, some will be worse. But in South Korea, automatically, yeah, as a teacher, you pay your pension, which comes out of your paycheck, and the school meets it 100%. So really, you're getting 200 % of pension each month. When you do leave the country, they just pay it out to you. So so I was living there for three, three years. And of course,

Spencer Payne: Yeah, okay.

Rainier Lee: I wasn't always at like the bougie international schools. Some of this was just language schools So that's even getting less than what you should be getting but yeah, I I left with my wife This was back when the Korean won was a little stronger and inflation was a little less. But yeah three years each getting double pension  we got like maybe four months worth of salary just paid to us because when you leave the country, they give it to you. Now in the Netherlands too, you automatically with that big high tax rate that you pay, a lot of it goes towards your pension. So most countries, even if you're not a national of that country, pay your pension because there are certain laws in place to where the government says you have to pay your teachers pensions and then most likely if you leave the country, they just give it to you.

Spencer Payne: Okay, got it. And anything else from, again, we'll dig into some of lifestyle and the growth here in a second, but anything else from the card hold economics or the budgeting and all that kind of stuff, you know, we hit on, you know, salary with all these other benefits like taxes and travel back home and having your family come with you, health insurance, retirement accounts, et cetera. Anything else on that front that is worth calling out for the audience or someone who's maybe thinking about this, but they're trying to learn more of how this might impact their wallet.

Rainier Lee: Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. Well, I incentives, right? What would get a teacher to go teach in Saudi Arabia, right? It's money. And that's really what the government and the schools want to bring you there, too. So in a sense, as a teacher, I don't know, I like kind of see it like we are. Yeah, we're kind of like gold diggers sometimes, depending on what country that you go to. But you can make this is a good buck, you can make quite a good buck. And I do say in your career for me, of course.

Now teaching in the Netherlands, don't save basically a lick of any money, right? Because I don't get those certain benefits. When I say holistically, even in Honduras, I didn't save as much because I got some more benefits, some less financial benefits. So I'd say, yeah, try. If ever you go internationally two years in Asia or the Middle East, and you really will have a couple, like almost a year worth of saving, give you like opportunities to really pursue different types of things.

Spencer Payne: Now to transition to your kind of like life and culture and, you know, adapting to these new places and maybe adventure and, and some of that other aspect. You've again, you've gone from Pennsylvania to South Korea, to Honduras, to Netherlands, moving every two or three years or so. Can you just share a little bit more about what's the hardest part and maybe the most fun part about this constant adventure of kind of every two to three years, you're not just at a new school, you're in a new country, there's a new home language, there's a new, lot of things. What's really hard about that and what's really exciting about that?

Rainier Lee: Yeah, I think it's the typical. mean, if you talk to any student or like any kid that's lived this type of lifestyle, let's say their mother or father or a diplomat or a missionary or something. It's really the excitement of something new constantly mixed in with the mourning of losing something all at the same time. Like it's just constant transition. So for me, it's just exciting. I know in our last podcast discussion, I mentioned that I'm a cultural anthropologist before becoming a teacher. So for me, it's really just learning new things and experiencing different cultures and ways of life.

But yeah, one of the most exciting I guess would be when I lived in, I don't know, so many. Let me start with the not so exciting. So when I moved to Honduras, I loved it. I adored it. My daughter was born there. My wife's family's from there. It's gorgeous. But there are realities in the world that to say some countries are safer than others.

So I never felt unsafe in my life. I was always feeling really really comfortable But in South Korea, I had the ability to be like, there's mountains up there I'm gonna go hike with old ladies and old men, right? So you go hiking right? But there's certain places in Honduras where it's like you can't hike in those mountains because that's where the drug dealers live, right? So so different things like that where countries yes will be safe completely safe, especially for you as a  privilege person, right? Going to the country, fulfilling a need. But yeah, if you go to Saudi Arabia, you can't go to certain villages without a hijab, right? If you're a woman, you can't wear certain bathing suits, I'm sure, at different beaches. So there are these type of aspects, even in South Korea, there could be some prejudice that came, especially for darker skinned people.

Rainier Lee: during the COVID era, just because there's historical happenings, et cetera, et cetera. But these realities, right, that you still are a guest in the country and there are certain things that are normalized. Let's say women in some countries not having as many rights. Us as Westerners or Americans, I want to say it's really like whack, but like certain countries, those are normalized or in certain regions of the world where it's like, okay, you can't go to that part of the city because it's not safe. Or we can try to all of these beach areas in this beautiful country feel super safe, but the southeast of this country we just don't visit because there's a civil war.

Those realities kind of come into place. for me, that was the hardest part because I love nature and I love being out in nature. But yeah, on the flip side, bright parts about this is you're constantly learning, you're constantly interacting with different cultures, you're constantly gaining information and knowledge. And in my opinion, you're advancing your career twice as fast, right? So like, you're not going to be like, oh, I'm going to stay out of place for 20 years and have the opportunity to maybe be the head of my department because there's so much turnover, can really just advance your career really quickly.

Spencer Payne: And you mentioned on the positive side, right? In South Korea, kind of hiking that mountain with people from all walks of life. As you look back on all these experiences and all these different places, is there one or two kind of favorite local cultural experiences that you were able to have? Maybe, maybe they were rare or maybe it was just every day that one coffee shop right there. Like they just did an amazing job. Is there anything that stands out to you as just favorites? Like what are some of the favorite experiences you had in that, in that local environment?

Rainier Lee: Yeah, yeah, I'd say, yeah, South Korea, lived on an island called Jeju.  they're famous for having people called Henyo, which are female divers. You could probably Google it. It pops up on natural, national geographic, but it's women who free dive. They're typically old ladies, who free dive and like get all types of food from, the bottom of the ocean. Really cool. Right. So I remember one moment, my mom came to visit us after COVID and we were kind of just going around on the island eating. And she was like, man, I really wish I saw the Henyo like they're world famous. I want to see where they're at.

And I'm like, you know what?  you just met them. They're the one that served you the food. They go diving early in the morning then they have restaurants and this food that you're eating is from the fresh catch of the day that they got. So that was a really cool experience. Those type of things where you kind of get to interact with like the local history and the local people.

Also, just a cup of coffee, Honduran coffee. my gosh. In my opinion, the smoothest coffee in the world. And you really get like that nice, Honduran culture of hospitality, of people being curious of where you come from and very like happy for you to have chosen their country. Something that you're going to come across quite a lot. If you choose, in my opinion, the best thing to do is to choose a country that kind of sounds out of your comfort zone, right? Because then people are like, why did you choose my country? Why are you here?

Why are you educating my youth? Thank you for this and just that that fun experience to where you're appreciated Of course on the flip side compared that to US education. It's not always the same so

Spencer Payne: Yeah. Which as a complete aside, as a, as a fun fact back in, you know, the late 1800s, early 1900s ish, especially, you know, out, out more West frontier land. Like there was often traveling teachers and it was an honor to be the person who hosted the teacher to live in your home because, the teacher was, you know, she, she was teaching maybe grades kindergarten through sixth grade in the one room schoolhouse. And that was considered an honor to be the person who was hosting that teacher. so anyway, maybe, maybe there's a little bit of that in some of these other countries that maybe we have lost a little bit.

Rainier Lee: yeah, I think you get it. You get it because it is really who would pick up their bags and go move to the frontiers. That really is. And of course, some of these frontiers are really cushy. Some of these frontiers are going to be living in like semi-mansion lifestyles and like eating out every single day and just having privileges of saving money. But really, regardless of where you go in the world. And I have teaching friends all over the world, all across Southeast Asia, Northeast Asia. I mean, I'm talking about Africa, Latin America. Now Europe, like You really are, pick up your passport, pick up your teaching degree and go like you say, go out West, go out East to the frontiers and like go live in someone else's culture. That's a beautiful experience that I feel like, yeah, is kind of like a, nod back to history.

Spencer Payne: Uh, and I, gotta, I gotta dig into this cup of coffee again for just a second, for all you coffee lovers out there. So the Honduran cup of coffee that is one of the best smoothest in the world. Can you just like paint us a picture of like, how is it when you go with this shot, like how is it served? Is it an espresso style? Is it a full Americano style? Like a 12 out, like is there, is the custom to put something in it or to have it black? Like, you paint us, paint us a little coffee picture of what your favorite cup of coffee is.

Rainier Lee: yeah, beautiful question, Spencer. Here I go. Beautiful question, no. It's the experience. So really you think of, okay, you're gonna pick up a cup of coffee at Starbucks or a cup of coffee at Dunkin' Donuts. You grab it, you go to work, you drink it, right? A cup of coffee in Honduras is an experience. You typically have it while you're eating a semita.

Spencer Payne: Hahaha!

Rainier Lee: which if there are any Mexican listeners, a concha or a pan dulce, it's basically that, but it's called a semita in Honduras. So you always have it you always have it relaxed with company. So for me, when I say the smoothest Honduran coffee, I'm not just talking about the coffee. I'm talking about the conversations I'm having. I'm talking about the clear mind I'm having. I'm talking about the semita I'm having on the side where you dip that dry, delicious shelled pastry in and eat it and you're talking with somebody. So yeah, it's it's smooth. The lifestyle is smooth. The coffee is smooth for a taste for those coffee. I know most teachers were all addicted and who can blame us, right?

But you don't need any sugar, you don't need any milk. It just tastes really smooth. It tastes like sweet. And if any of those really strong coffee people, I mean, you might not like it, but it's encompassed into the whole experience, right? So the same goes having coffee in, whereas in Korea, you don't drink it in the morning. You typically drink it later on because young people still live with their parents as most countries. And the only time to like actually spend time with your girlfriend or your boyfriend or friends is out at a cafe. So yeah, you have it out at a cafe like at 10 o'clock here in the Netherlands. Yeah, 10 o'clock in the Netherlands too. This is going to shock you guys actually. A way to tell somebody like culturally that, I'm done with this conversation. I'm done with dinner. I kind of want to go home. As you say, would you like a cup of coffee? So if ever you're at a Dutchie's house and they say, would you like a cup of coffee? They're saying, can we please go home?

Spencer Payne: at 10 o'clock at night. Ha!

That means, yeah.

Rainier Lee: But it's here, like let's say I finish dinner at eight o'clock, I have a espresso shot or a cappuccino at night, and then I fall asleep. It's just, yeah, it's interesting. It's fuel in America, I want to say coffee is, but it's a cultural experience depending on what country you're in and what cultural context you're in. It's quite interesting.

Spencer Payne: Well, I'm sure we could have a separate conversation all about coffee in different areas and what it actually means. Like it doesn't actually mean that we, want to keep going. means I want you to leave soon because you're.

Rainier Lee: Yeah.

yeah, yeah, you Spencer, you're like, you want a cup of coffee right now?

Spencer Payne: So I'm sure we can have a separate conversation on coffee around the world. But I'm curious on, again, on more like kind of like culture and adapting to these different places. How, how, if at all, are you maybe expected to teach differently in these different countries? Like I could see this going both ways of maybe a school is specifically trying to go bring in more of an American, a Western trained teacher, because maybe they want you to teach a certain way, but there's some local customs that also need to marry. So can you just help us understand how you kind of marry those two things and how you personally, or maybe you through the school are expected to change your teaching style based on the country and the makeup of the students in that particular culture.

Rainier Lee: Yeah, for sure, for sure. And as you guys know, my background is in anthropology. But really, I want to start it out as the school hires you as an American or Canadian or a South African. They don't expect you to be a cultural expert. They actually want you to bring your own background into it. So, for example, if you hire an American teacher, they're not going to be like, hey, in Honduras, learn Spanish, do this, do this, do this, do this, do this. No, they are literally hiring you for you outside of like your degree, your passport, your background, your accent, etc.

But yeah, I want to say conservative. Most countries are a little more conservative than the United States. And when I say conservative, I mean socially more conservative. There are also different countries. I mean, had horror stories, right? Now that people are like, should I go? No, but there are some like things where let's say some Middle Eastern countries wouldn't want you to talk much about Israel or talk much about those kinds of political things because there could be, yeah, the country could be at with another country or they could be just disliking the other country. yeah, those type of things. And in Korea, you typically get kids being like, Japan bad, because there's the history of colonization, etc. But you don't really need to be a cultural expert. You do need to be culturally sensitive, though.

And I say that is a growth mindset of a thing when you go to a country. Typically, I'd say typically, most likely, all the schools I've worked for have always had cultural sensitivity training. And this is in the beginning, in the middle, and at the end of each year. So one perfect example of this would be when I was in South Korea. What's the color that you typically grade with?

Spencer Payne: red here. Yeah. Yeah.

Rainier Lee: right? You never write kids names in red in South Korea because, yeah, that's a good question, right? Because that's only reserved for dead people.

Spencer Payne: Why is that?

Rainier Lee: So when you go to pray for, I don't want to say pray, give respect through Buddhism, et cetera, for your dead, especially during a holiday called Chusok, you always write their name in red and you'd always see deceased people's names in red. So if you're like, good job, JiU, like in red, like, whoa, you're trying to dead that kid. So of course these things aren't as crazy anymore because there's globalization, people understand, et cetera.

But small cultural trainings like that to where you don't write any kids names in red when you grade, when you say their name, you don't call kids crazy in South Korea. In the US, I say it all the time, Matt, you're acting crazier. I'm crazy. Like, let's stop being so crazy. But that word translated into English means someone in like an insane asylum. So different small cultural aspects to where you learn or you kind of are taught explicitly, which you typically are those type of things. Yeah, yeah. In the Netherlands too, we have a huge refugee population. So we might get a workshop on how to like discuss that if you see trauma. I know once a month, the first, I think Tuesday in the Netherlands, you have our warning, you, you, you, signs like in case like the Germans invade again or something. But like preparing for that, right?

So you will have cultural trainings when you have a huge population of Israeli kids who rockets are fired in their country basically on a daily basis, and then all of a sudden you hear sirens going off, that might trigger something, right? So you might have those type of cultural sensitivity trainings, yeah, in place. But really, it's nothing really big. We're foreigners. We're kind of expected to kind of make mistakes, and we're kind of laughed out for making mistakes. So a country isn't gonna be super shocked. But it is, I wanna say, up to us to kind of, not adapt, but to respect.

And these this thing I don't want to rabble too much about this but this came up when I was actually visiting Georgia the other week the country of Georgia and There was an American that was like why do you guys smoke so much? Why is there always smoke? I just hate having smoke all around and it was a bit like, okay You're in someone else's country like like like show a little risk show a little restraint and a little respect and kind of open your eyes so these small little in inconveniences  that we might see, I mean in South Korea, people slurp when they eat soup. For me growing up, my mom would slap me if I did that, right? Bam! But for there, it means it's delicious. You're showing respect to the cook and you're showing respect to your friend group being like, am really enjoying myself. So you really have to see these oddities that we see as oddities really in context aren't so

Spencer Payne: Hahaha.

Yeah. And, the concept of, I guess you never want to be the, the rude person who assumes your way maybe is the absolute right way. And why are these people doing it this way? Like the guy, like the person you're referencing in Georgia, who's like, why are you all smoking so much? This is gross. I don't want to be around this. Can you stop? I don't know. I don't know exactly what he said. Right. But like, right. The point being is like, you're in their country. These are their rules. Like you are a guest in this country. These are their rules.

Rainier Lee: Yeah. No, no.

Spencer Payne: On some level, expect similar no matter where you go. Like if I'm in someone's house, like I'm playing by the, in some way I'm playing by their rules. It's their home. It's not mine. Right. I'm not going to criticize someone in their own home for doing something that is normal to them. That's just, that's extremely rude. so,

Rainier Lee: Yeah.

And it always has a reason for it. So the Georgian guy said, look, we lived under a communist Russia for 60 years. We never knew historically and culturally if we were going to live the next day because they really just would kill us. Right. So he's like, so our culture, we smoke.

And we smoke, we started as little kids and stuff because you're never promised the, how did he phrase it? said, you're never promised the next day. So you appreciate and you celebrate the day that you're in. So it was like, Whoa, yeah. Like your small inconvenience has layers of history to it. Layers of all types of things. So yeah, it is one of those things where American, I mean, even though I'm half Dutch.

We're abrasive, we're really loud when we go abroad. As a culture, we're really opinionated and sometimes we just have to listen instead of speaking. And then we'll learn and then it's a nice experience to have and to learn from different cultures.

Spencer Payne: Yeah, and to go at that with a genuine curiosity instead of an accusatory curiosity. Like there's a big difference between, how come everyone, even kids all smoke everywhere in this place versus what's up with you guys? Why do you all smoke so much? Right? Those are two very different ways of approaching the same thing that you might be curious about.

Rainier Lee: Yeah, yeah, yeah

The assumption that somebody's lesser, the assumption that somebody's wrong just right off the bat is kind of like disrespectful. So yeah, those type of things, if you have a personality like that, I'd say don't go abroad or at least go abroad with an open mind and try to have fun.

Spencer Payne: Yeah. And one more on this kind of, you know, a cultural aspect is how, how do you approach, differently if, if this requires differences, kind of how you approach maybe being on the same team with parents of the students that you're teaching. you know, are there parent teacher conferences, you know, do they happen early at the beginning of a year at the end? Do you get on the same page? If this is the type of teacher I'm going to be, here's what I expected in my classroom. Here's how I also, will you know, engage in the local customs and the things that you think are important. And I want to make sure I'm doing that too. And also as parents, what do you want for your kids? Like, how can I do a great job? So, how do you balance that? And is that different in different cultures? Like, is that, is even having that conversation rude in some places? Is it considered a good thing? Like, how do you approach being on the same page with parents and is that even something that they want?

Rainier Lee: Yeah, well, I think the first thing is linguistically, you can't with all parents and that's not on you to learn the language. So you typically have a TA, like a teacher assistant, regardless of what you're teaching, who will be a local kind of like presenting those conversations. You build really good, strong communication. For me, let's say I'm in Honduras, I always had a TA in my thing when I was teaching first grade. She would translate, she would help, she would do different things. So really, you don't have to worry

Oh my gosh is the way that I am going to translate to the culture because they already have structures in place. They already have, um, you're not the first foreigner to come, you know, you're like a long line of most of these schools, of course, have like been in since like a diplomat  came there 50, 60 years ago or missionaries came there 50 or 60 years ago. So there's a consistently that you kind of jump into. But yeah, there are different things, language speaking, that's the big one. You'll always have one, someone to translate. When it comes to what you want, you will have to be depending on the culture, a little more sensitive to different things. I'll use the Korean one, for example, it's a very honorific culture and it's a very collective culture. So the idea of accusation right away.

You don't want to just accuse a student, right? You want to maybe walk into, do believe he's doing this or she's doing this. I don't believe it's good for them. And I think it will resolve this, right? So you can see how like, I'm already talking super passively. I sound like where I was raised in the South. That's naturally how we talk actually, to be honest. Like when you talk to a real Southern person, you're like, what do they want? Who are you and what do you want? Like, did you just declare war on me or do you want like a cup of tea? Okay.

Spencer Payne: Ha ha ha

Rainier Lee: But those type of things, right? So in Korea, it's dancing. In Honduras, too, yeah, a bit of that too, because I'm going say you're typically teaching rich kids. And when I say rich kids, I don't mean privileged all the time. They're not always privileged. They're not always snoozy. And what constitutes a rich student in South Korea is completely different than a rich student in the United States. So a rich student in South Korea has parents who are really  focused. They want them to get into Harvard. They want to do this, this, this, this, this. So the richer kids in the overseas, really the parents will listen to you because again, you're the expert. You're the American, right? You're the bridge of educating to where their kid, you're teaching them social studies or English like, okay, now my kid's going to write like an American, speak like an American, et cetera.

They're not super hard conversations and you always, always have help from co-teachers or admin, et cetera, because again, you're a foreigner and everyone knows it.

Spencer Payne: Yep. And to get into this growth concept that you also hit on earlier, can you just share a little perspective on going from again, I'll repeat it again, because it's a wild ride from PA to South Korea, Honduras, to the Netherlands. Can you help categorize for someone who maybe can't fathom that 10 years on the road in two or three years everywhere, how would you describe to that person the growth opportunities you've had and how much you have grown as a result of that versus

It's impossible to always compare something that never happened, but what if you had stayed in Pennsylvania at the same school for that entire time? Like what, types of things can, can you point to that maybe you've been able to grow X, Y, and Z stronger in ABC thing that you're just not sure if you would have had, uh, kind of staying in the same path. Can you characterize that at all? How have you been able to grow and faster in wider areas as a result of doing what you've done?

Rainier Lee: Yeah.

Yeah, I think personally and educationally. like as a teacher growth is Yeah, I've taught Asian kids, right? I taught kids from East Asian. This is not just South Korean, but Chinese Japanese Singaporean with a strong language difficulty, right? But a huge mindset of working I've taught kids in Latin America all over the world that really does help you give perspective on how to handle these intercultural conversations, not just with the parents, but with the students. So really when it does that, yeah, and it makes you just have to go with the flow. Personally, I stop accusing, you know? Like really in the classroom and beyond the classroom, I stop accusing. So with the Georgia, let's say I go on vacation to Georgia, the guy's smoking. I'm not going to say, why are you smoking? How dare you? I say, I'm curious, why do people smoke so much here, right? in the classroom, it's the same.

student, let's say I have a student coming from the United States, he's acting up like crazy. Instead of being like, Hey, buddy, what's wrong with you? I say, what's wrong? Are you okay? Because naturally, you know, something's not okay. I mean, they're they migrated here. They're in a complete different country. They're surrounded by people that don't look like them or talk like them. So like, yeah, yeah, as as me personally growing, it makes you ask the questions. It's Yeah, and I'd say that if you want to fast track, take my personal experience. The whole 10 years, let me tell you, like one thing you want to do is just ask questions instead of accusing. And of course, going back to my career, that wasn't always the case. Why are you slurping? That's disgusting. You know what I mean? Like, please don't do that. It ticks me off. Like I'm having traumatized one mom smacking me in the back of the head. Different things like that. You know what I mean? Or yeah, just different things like that.

Ask the questions. Be curious. Even different things with South Korea you'd have a lot of the kids being saying Japan bad because yeah a lot of prejudice against Japan and instead of being like Idiots like you you play with Pokemon cards, you know those come from Japan You you say what why are your parents say that and then they give you the whole history of how Japan colonized the country It doesn't justify the prejudice, but it gives you kind of perspective into the and then as you're going to these countries too, you don't want to just go there and be an outsider that just makes money and gains money. You want to give back to it. And really that is asking questions and kind of adapting to the way things are and respecting people's heritage and culture.

Spencer Payne: Thank you. And I'd to dig into this last most recent transition you had from Honduras to the Netherlands. So for people who are wondering, where do I even get started? What's the website I go to? Like, how do I even find international opportunities? How do I decide which country I go to next? Which school I go to next within that country? Can you help us understand a little bit of that process and maybe speak to some of specifically how you transition from maybe South Korea to the school in Honduras or from that to the one in the Netherlands?

A little overview of process and then maybe how specifically you handled it with your last two moves. If you, if, if you could share any of that, that might be helpful for someone who's wondering, where do I even start?

Rainier Lee: Yeah, I think for sure for those current teachers, but also those who want to become a teacher, you start with a teacher certificate. So for me, it was Moreland University. Even when I was teaching English, I started as an English teacher, English thing, but I wanted to go to international schools. You need a teaching certificate from any country, the US of course, because I'm half American. So that really helped.

There is a website and I want to say kind of like a club that I not a club. What do call it? We're an association It's called search association. So search as in the association that really is for me There are many out there, but for me the best You pay about around 150 to 200 dollars you get vetted as a teacher, of course you get a background check you Get all your documents in place. You even get some admins or something,  Some past, even if they're not teachers, some people kind of giving you what are called like blind feedback. So like they're going to say if you're good or you're a bad teacher, et cetera, you don't actually see what they say because the association will go send reviews for them to fill out. So that's perfect. Around 150 to 200 dollars, I'm not sure the price now. Once you get into that association, you get an associate and that person really does help you with your career as an international teacher.

You have a database where it's based. Oh, it's so beautiful. I'm trying to visualize it for everybody. It's, like a Google maps, but like you have each country you can click on. You click on that country and it's like, okay, I want to go teach in Brazil. You click in Brazil. It has all the schools listed. do do do do do do. You say, okay, that one's a Rio de Janeiro. You click on that one. This is the salary it pays. This is the average that you're going to save per year because of course it's association. This is what perks you get, whether it's the healthcare, whether it's the extra paycheck a year, etc, etc, etc, free flights home, all of that. That is for me the database that you want to get on search associates, it will take you around a month to fully get access to it. Because you can't see everything. Because you have to, of course, go through these background checks, upload your documents and get some feedback from like your previous work jobs. It is it is wonderful. That's how I got most of my jobs abroad.

Now, When you're thinking where I should teach, where is going to accept me? You really want a personal or historical background to that country to get more of a in. For me, my wife's from Honduras. So I go to all this database. Okay. Where do I want to teach now? Okay. My wife's from Honduras. Boom. Upload. You already have all your documents. don't even have to write a cover letter because it's all already uploaded. But I say a personal thing. Hi. My wife's family's from there. Or my wife is Honduran, right? She's a Honduran American, but you should spice it up. So my wife's Honduran, blah, blah, blah. because these schools really see people come and go come and go come and go and people get spooked and it's typically a two-year contract they get scared sometimes within the first half of the year or the first year but they get spooked so really

Yeah, search associates, go for it. You're already vetted as a person. All those schools are also vetted. So they're trustworthy schools and you can kind of really search like a smorgasbord. Look at whatever place in the world you want to teach, see what jobs are there. It'll have all the positions available and you kind of want to do it quickly. Let's say the school year starts, of course, in September or July. You want to start maybe December or January for the following school

Spencer Payne: Uh, and, and one more, one more, more, even more detailed question. How do you decide and how to address or in the Netherlands where you are now, it's one thing to go click on that big, map and search associates that you're describing. It's very easy and all that kind of stuff. Let's say there's multiple, uh, schools that you could potentially go teach in that country or even the city in that country that you want to go to. How do you decide on the school? Like, how do you go about that process?

Rainier Lee: It's a really good thing. see reviews, right? So the teaching international school teaching career or teaching community is very small and it's a very close knit. You can go to Facebook group teachers in Honduras. Hey guys, I got a job offer from Escuela San Pedrana in San Pedro Sula.

And people will reply to it because someone has taught there, right? So it's really easy or even going from place to place. Let's say I'm teaching in Honduras. I, my school had people who had taught Malta, people who taught in Japan, people have taught in Argentina. And you're like, Hey, how was your school? I liked it or I didn't like it. This is what it was. And you get kind of like that kind of vetting going on outside of the search associates. But yeah, it goes back to, yeah, there's Honduras. There's three, right? three schools that were on that then you go back to my checklist. pay, lifestyle, and career. You know? So for me, if I want to teach primary or not primary, secondary school, I go for the one that has a secondary school. If I want to live a lifestyle close to the ocean, I choose a school that's close to the ocean, right? Those different things. And typically you want to get all three of those, but you most likely won't get all three of those because that's the dream. But it depends on what you want. If you want to save money, you can.

Yeah, okay. Let me look in the Middle East. Okay, I could work in Saudi Arabia have all these privileges, etc, etc, etc. But that's two years and I can only really leave during my breaks and stuff to go live like the lifestyle that I want. The Netherlands going back to that beautiful lifestyle, but I'm not making as much money when it comes to all those perks. So really, yeah, for me, you look at that database and you look at job hunting and you really look at the checklist lifestyle pay and really is this advanced in my career or regressing my career because in case you're burnt out many people do get burnt out and want to go abroad. Those three things that's typically what I would look at.

Spencer Payne: Thanks so much, Ranier, for sharing that. And this is a great, again, we're trying to paint the picture if someone's just curious of how does this actually work? Where do you go? Where do you vet? What are the opportunities? How much education do I need to do on that particular country before I go? What's the pay look like benefit? All that kind of stuff. We're trying to just give a good overview. So someone who might be curious as armed with a little more information. Is there anything you feel like we didn't hit on to someone out there who might be?

I'm curious about this, but you didn't hit on this or this. Anything else that you wanna share, especially if go back to maybe that very first experience, that transition that you had from PA to South Korea that you're like, nobody told me this. I wish I had known this before I got here. Is there anything else that you wanna share to someone who might be curious or thinking about maybe their first experience doing this?

Rainier Lee: Yeah, I'd say the scariest thing is getting on the plane.

So this is one thing that I would just say teachers, especially teachers in America, do it. Like there's nothing to lose. You're not going to lose anything. You'll really just gain from the experience, whether that's finances, whether that's your lifestyle or whether that's just learning from somebody. do it. Like it is a dream. And of course I have family and friends who don't go abroad or do, but really like it's scarier than it looks. You have all the checks. These schools are vetted.

You have countries that cultures celebrate family. So it's not, let's say the wife teaches or the husband teaches and the other one doesn't or the partners, et cetera. You both don't need to teach. You just go, like I have a friend, she's a... she teaches swimming right now in Jeju in South Korea and her husband he just goes there he's taking his masters online and living a life on an island like sounds really good right so so it's not as scary as it looks the world is globalized the world is connected every single summer or even you could go in the winter, you go back to your home country and this is typically paid by the school. So really it's nothing to lose. It's beautiful. People are wonderful around the world. yeah, I'd say just do it. Like what's stopping you, especially in the United States, we are highly privileged. If you ever wanted to go visit somewhere, why not just live there, right? If you're a K-Boo, go live in South Korea.

If you want to be closer to your family, they, let's say your grandfather immigrated from Venezuela or from Colombia, like go back to your roots, go find those roots, go see what the city that your grandparents are from. And really there's nothing really that it's going to do negatively besides save you money and advance your career, you know? So yeah.

Spencer Payne: Well, that's great advice. So thank you so much Rainier for sharing your much, much more in the weeds detail perspective of what it really looks like to teach internationally and taking that first step. And that just getting on the plane is the hardest part. So thank you so much for sharing your perspective on this.

Rainier Lee: Yeah, thanks for that. This has been a pleasure.